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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:28 am 
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Unless eternity has always existed in which case we have no way of tracing back to where time (if that was even existing then as well) begun?

Back to string theory though: I agree that this is the best way to describe the effect that is linking through the great tree. However, I do not believe that the number of possible parallel universes is finite, just because of the astronomically large proportion of possible combinations that could be achieved through linking and writing.

The D'ni always believed that they were never creating worlds and that was proved because we established that they were already creating a link to a pre-existing world. While we still have a fairly basic (I say we, I mean I :P ) understanding of temperal mechanics and spacial mechanics what's not to say that you're right and that at one point in time, yes, there are only a finite number of parallel universes which are linked to, but the action of writing the link, does create the world that's being linked to therefore providing us with an infinite number of parallel universes.

I say this because as of yet, no-one has written a link to a parallel world that does not exist by default of getting your writing "wrong" because you haven't learn the art. So... you know the art and write a link to a stable world - the link is always created and there has never been a time when any writer has a written a link to a stable world and that world not existed, which makes me believe there fore that there are an infinite number of parallel universes that can be accessed via linking.

*takes deep breath*

Anyways, the best analogy of this i've heard is just...

"wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff" :)

TG

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:14 pm 
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Ed Oscuro wrote:
Maybe RAWA fails at string theory?


What does Art have to do with an incomplete, unconfirmed and untestable theory of a theory which might not even work in a different universe?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:06 am 
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TomahnaGuy wrote:
Anyways, the best analogy of this i've heard is just...

"wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff" :)


Yay Dr. Who quotes!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:56 pm 
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I see you are not making the assumption that time is a strict, linear progression of cause to effect...

You ever see the White Hole episode of Red Dwarf?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:58 am 
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Ok. Let's think for a moment. There have to be an insanely large number of visitable Ages, but not an infinite number of visitable Ages. There are, however, an infinite number of unvisitable Ages. Here's why:

If an "instance" is simply an Age that differs only incalculably slightly from another Age, then there are as many linkable Ages as there are instances: however in order for it to be an instance it has to at least resemble its brother and sister Ages. And there are as many instances per Age as there are molecules in that whole Age (meaning the time, place, and universe that that Age resides in) which is why you can't Write a descriptive book to the same Age twice-- if even a few molecules in that Age are altered, you go to a different Age.

And if you alter the Descriptive Book even slightly, you end up in a different Age entirely (even if it is so incredibly similar, with the same people, places, or things that you do not notice a difference. But it is still technically a different place.)

So if you have 1 Age on your bookshelf, and each Age has as many instances as there are molecules in the universe, then there are that number of instances (which are seperate Ages) just for that one Age. If one molecule is in point A instead of point B in one instance, BAM, it's different from every other instance where it might be in point B. So from that respect, there are an incalculably large number of nearly-identical Ages, but not an infinite number. Lost yet? We're not even half-way there.

There comes a point when Ages no longer resemble other Ages-- at which point they are not instances, they are seperate. And each seperate Age has an equally massive number of corresponding instances. And on and on and on. But it gets even more confusing.

There comes a point when the instances seperate from each other and become individual Ages. And each of those Ages has instances. It's like a rainbow: sooner or later, yellow and red seperate, but that's a hard line to follow. The rainbow is like the Ages we can visit and actually see.

The Ages we cannot visit are the ones where all the molecules in their respective universes are mushed up in such a way that there is nothing material in the Age. Remember, Ages are just a selected arrangement of molecules in a given instance. So there must be Ages where all the molecules are in non-visitable forms. And there are as many molecules in each universe as there are universes, and there are more molecules in the universe than we can ever measure.

So for all intents and purposes, all Ages point to an infinite number of universes in which non-visitable Ages exist, but there are only so many (albiet a very, very large number) of Ages that could support us.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:07 pm 
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I completely agree with you, Calam.

There's just one thing I think it's incorrect

Quote:
And there are as many molecules in each universe as there are universes

I think the number of universes is greater than the number of molecules (or better, we should consider subatomic particles) in each Age (assuming all the Ages have the same number of particles).
Take three numbers as an example:
1,2,3

From these 3 numbers I can have more than 3 combination of them:
1,2,3
1,3,2
2,3,1
2,1,3
3,1,2
3,2,1

As you can see: with 3 numbers we have 3! (read 3 Factorial), which is 6

so it could be something similar for Ages: number of Ages = (number of subatomic particles in each Age)!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:15 am 
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This boils down to three things: is a universe infinite, is there an infinite number of universes and is an age = to a universe or some subset, like a galaxy?

If universes are infinite and ages are universal sets; then variations of an age (both visitable and not) are also infinite.

If universes are finite or ages are a finite subset of a universe (like a galaxy); then variations of an age are finite as well.

If universes are finite and the number of universes is infinite and ages are universal; then we have an infinite number of ages of finite variations.

There ~(3!) variations on this theme but, I think you get the picture.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:26 pm 
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According to Dr. Watson, the D'ni believed the Great Tree to have a finite number of Ages. Of course they could be wrong but, unless one has good reasons to believe or postulate otherwise, I'd stick with that assumption.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:29 pm 
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so... could this mean that there is a limit to the amount of instances that the Great Tree can maintain? Where it stops seperating each instance and combines them?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:03 am 
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Depends on your definition of 'finite'.

It's quite possible it has a finite number of ages, but an infinite number of instances for each age. Which means that you could think there's infinite ages, but it depends on how far 'age' goes. Such as Book of Atrus, which while full of wingrovianisms, shows that the age can bend an be the same age, but too much and it snaps to a newer.


Besides, finite just means it has a limit. It doesn't mean we can ever reach that in a trillion lifetimes and a google different instances of the same age.. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:17 pm 
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Such as Book of Atrus, which while full of wingrovianisms, shows that the age can bend an be the same age, but too much and it snaps to a newer.


that's what I said about "combining" the instances, basically, if the instances have differences so subtle, they are considered "one instance" that's what I was trying to say.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:16 pm 
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Gondar wrote:
Such as Book of Atrus, which while full of wingrovianisms, shows that the age can bend an be the same age, but too much and it snaps to a newer.


You could counter that argument by saying that technically, there is no age bending and our understanding of finite or infinite ages is not that, and that in fact that which we exist is one incredibly large 'age' all centred around infinite universes/multiverses/dimensions. But that just depends on what quantity also defines an 'age' and what it is an 'age' centres around. ;)

TG

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:27 pm 
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It's important to point out that by finite, we are still talking about an insainly big number, like a "scientific notation ain't gonna help you here" big number. Keep in mind that also that while there are plenty of possible combination, there are even more impossible combinations. According to Atrus, all ages still have to answer to the laws of physics.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Crikey! It's gonna be difficult getting all these worms back in that can I've opened, isn't it? :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:11 pm 
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greendragoon wrote:
It's important to point out that by finite, we are still talking about an insainly big number, like a "scientific notation ain't gonna help you here" big number. Keep in mind that also that while there are plenty of possible combination, there are even more impossible combinations. According to Atrus, all ages still have to answer to the laws of physics.


Which is odd considering the number of ages that defy the (known) laws of physics that we've seen. :shock:

TG

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