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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:06 am 
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While they possess powers that are out of this age, are they intelligent as in man? Do they have a consciousness, a mind, a self-awareness, and thus participate in thought? If they saw themselves in a mirror would they recognise themselves? It's hard to ask Yeesha since she was delusional at her own admission and displayed some serious psychological problems.

And I've always wondered what happens if, like in most forms of language and communication when you're learning, if you drew the wrong thing in Myst V to the Bahro. Surely a slight mistake would tell them to join me in a drink later in the bar at D'ni, or to destroy this age, I've had enough of it. Hehehe, I've just always wondered.


Anyway, back to my discussion…

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:53 am 
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Yes they are, because they were able to make the choice to be good or evil. Some decided to help us. Some decided to link Sharper away when he was attacked in Negilahn. Another Bahro decided to sacrifice itself in Noloben to save Sharper and the explorers.

I don't know how intelligent they are, but they are.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:02 am 
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But by saying intelligence I don't just mean a measure of one's problem solving abilities or all the other complex things that accompany it - I mean in the same way that human being are different from dolphins, or magpies, or chimpanzees.


mmm…

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:27 pm 
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They appear to have communication, some kind of civilization, and morality.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:02 pm 
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As with everything about the bahro it's 95% speculation.

They seem to be intelligent. They mimic actions, they're said to have their own goals and choices. Social species to some extent, much like humans.. they form groups according to decisions based around a central leader but can disagree to form at least one dissenting group. That doesn't take intelligence but the motivations given do. So if what we've been told is true it indicates some level of it.


As for civilization, we don't see any traces. What would be there would depend on "enslavement" which we can't make guesses about based on human parallels until we know what was involved. Yeesha's no help. (Yeesha no help at getting details? GASP! SHOCKING! :roll: ) It could be that they have their own culture and civilization elsewhere we've never come across. It could also be they weren't allowed to have one except as some sort of slaves in the human context. (me I think they do somewhere, since I suspect their 'enslavement' is really just a way to keep them away from the D'ni worlds they'd normally move into anyways)

As for language, presumably. Yeesha supposedly talked with them, but what we heard is she learned from them. It's very possible they don't HAVE a language, and work entirely on ay pictographic representations line we see in Eder Kemo (which is not a language), and Yeesha learned by observation.. and the whole bahro tablet thing *was* as far as they have.
We dunno, really. No info. We know they appear to have a numbering system though, and a language if the minkata tablet is a translation and not a set of random things or worse from someone else (like say Yeesha).
(Unless Nick confirmed it's a language.. if I recall he didn't know any more than we did about them)


So, in the end.. do bahro have "intelligence"? It seems so, but it's really risky to go and portray them as having such as a 'fact' without any confirmation. Then again it's tough to tell if humans have intelligence, hence the whole Skinnerist movement. We have the Turing Test as a reason.. but I think bahro are intelligent, as a working basis not as a confirmed thing. More data needed, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


And yes, I'm fully aware of the whole apparently deep "maybe they wonder if we're intelligent" bit. They know we are, because of the complexity of what we've done. We just haven't seen much in return. (And to reiterate, we dunno if they made most of the stuff they seem to. I have doubts about the whole bahro-tablets being from them.. unless Yeesha taught them they'd probably never make the things on their own. Why? They can link anywhere on their own!)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:17 pm 
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Gondar wrote:
As with everything about the bahro it's 95% speculation.

Quite true.
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As for civilization, we don't see any traces. What would be there would depend on "enslavement" which we can't make guesses about based on human parallels until we know what was involved. Yeesha's no help. (Yeesha no help at getting details? GASP! SHOCKING! :roll: ) It could be that they have their own culture and civilization elsewhere we've never come across. It could also be they weren't allowed to have one except as some sort of slaves in the human context. (me I think they do somewhere, since I suspect their 'enslavement' is really just a way to keep them away from the D'ni worlds they'd normally move into anyways)

There is some culture. There appear to be factions, rational and irrational group action, etc.

Quote:
As for language, presumably. Yeesha supposedly talked with them, but what we heard is she learned from them. It's very possible they don't HAVE a language, and work entirely on ay pictographic representations line we see in Eder Kemo (which is not a language), and Yeesha learned by observation.. and the whole bahro tablet thing *was* as far as they have.
We dunno, really. No info. We know they appear to have a numbering system though, and a language if the minkata tablet is a translation and not a set of random things or worse from someone else (like say Yeesha).
(Unless Nick confirmed it's a language.. if I recall he didn't know any more than we did about them)

They do have a chirping thing, right? Might be language, might just be signals or music.

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And yes, I'm fully aware of the whole apparently deep "maybe they wonder if we're intelligent" bit. They know we are, because of the complexity of what we've done.

Well, they don't wonder or know if they aren't themselves intelligent.

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We just haven't seen much in return. (And to reiterate, we dunno if they made most of the stuff they seem to. I have doubts about the whole bahro-tablets being from them.. unless Yeesha taught them they'd probably never make the things on their own. Why? They can link anywhere on their own!)
Esher does refer specifically to the Tablet, Slates, and Bubbles (I forget what they're called) as being made by them, right? Those alone would be proof of intelligence, I'd say. They recognize communication from other sources, for one thing. Also, were they made specifically for the quest, or something like it? That would be a recognition of morality and intelligence.


One reason why they might not appear very intelligent or have much signs of intelligence is their long slavery. If a race is continually used only to answer the commands of another race, be an invisible presence, etc., they might not know to employ their own intellect.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:46 am 
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This bring me to my next question: were the Bahro enslaved or domesticated?


hmmm, hmmm, hmmm…

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:39 am 
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PinothyJ wrote:
I mean in the same way that human being are different from dolphins


Actually, to be honest, that's not entirely valid. One can quite easily suggest with the information that we know, now, that dolphins are quite possibly as intelligent as a human. And do not differ as widely as you suggest. They do no have tools (that we know of) but, that does not preclude them from human-like intelligence. Tools are possible, only if you can manipulate them, tools do not make the species itself "intelligent" as you put it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:53 am 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
[Dolphins] do no have tools (that we know of)


They do, actually! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123013471543833011.html

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:25 am 
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Ohhh, interesting. That does extend the argument a little.

I still think the Bahro, in some case, have been domesticated as we have domesticated animal and not hunted down and enslaved as we look at it. Or at least that is how the D'ni may have view their actions.


I'm just trying to dig deeper into the limited evidence that we have…

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:36 am 
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I had an idea. It's probably not really conected to this topic, but I don't suppose it will harm anyone.

The bahros, in my opinion, are infected d'ni. Long time ago (garternay), there was a VERY mysterious desease which lasted few years. At that time, many d'ni were infected. The good side is that they had special powers with the art- and we all know what they are. The bad side is that they turned into some ugly flying monkey things. Anyway, these d'ni were humiliated, called "bahro" (beast people) and exiled. When the ronay came to the cavern, they found them again, and had an idea- enslave them (yep, enslave their own people). So they did (at least behind the eyes of the common people). A grower (like yeesha or ri'neref) is someone who as the powers of the bahros, yet he is still d'ni. This was a great "job", to be a grower, and that's why many people claimed to be one (esher, kadish).

So if you ask me, the bahros are smart just like the d'ni.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:06 pm 
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chucker wrote:
kaelisebonrai wrote:
[Dolphins] do no have tools (that we know of)


They do, actually! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123013471543833011.html


Wow! I didn't know about that! Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:39 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
The bahros, in my opinion, are infected d'ni. Long time ago (garternay), there was a VERY mysterious desease which lasted few years. At that time, many d'ni were infected. The good side is that they had special powers with the art- and we all know what they are. The bad side is that they turned into some ugly flying monkey things. Anyway, these d'ni were humiliated, called "bahro" (beast people) and exiled. When the ronay came to the cavern, they found them again, and had an idea- enslave them (yep, enslave their own people). So they did (at least behind the eyes of the common people). A grower (like yeesha or ri'neref) is someone who as the powers of the bahros, yet he is still d'ni. This was a great "job", to be a grower, and that's why many people claimed to be one (esher, kadish).


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:54 pm 
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The question isn't tool use... I'd say it's tool *creation*. It's one thing to grab a random stick and use it as a club, but it's a whole other ballpark to reshape it and work it over into a far better club, or better yet tie on a sharpened rock and make a spear.
The bahro supposedly made tablets and bubbles. Ok, question, WHY? Why would they make things to help us link, except for helping us? Hence we're back to the Yeesha helping question. A bahro that can self-link has no more need of a linking device than we do of say something to let us breathe oxygen. Unless there's cases where they can't link but could use a device, it's no good. In fact, we see the contrary where books fail but bahro can mysteriously link about.
It's not nescessarily that they can't make them, it's that they wouldn't unless they knew we needed them, probably told by Yeesha and later figured out if intelligent. For all they knew we and the D'ni didn't use the books for linking, and it was a religious rite before we linked ourselves about. If they're not a tool-using species it'd be harder for them to figure our tools to be such. Assuming of course they can extrapolate purpose, which is a sign of intelligence.

Plus, I really don't want to think Esher is a credible source. I don't think he had heard of bahro until he fled to noloben after the Fall and found them there.. at which point he studied them. Calls them demons, because he has no clue of what they are, and the history of them. He calls them demons, not slaves (well, outside of the bad ending which is even more proof as it implies they weren't beforehand)

Factions and group action does not imply a culture, unless it means all social creatures have culture. That's not my field so I'm not too clear on WHAT defines a culture, but I don't think they qualify. And thus the bahro's actions don't either. It implies a social species that will form factions and band together over a cause, but doesn't mean a culture. They may not even have one depending on their "enslavement".

Which is the big question. Just what does it mean? Yeesha never explained... no one explained. Yeesha says "enslaved" but also talks about teledahn which was human-like slaves.. so it muddies it. I figure the Winged Ones in particular actually were just 'enslaved' as far as location. They couldn't explicitly take over ages.. instead they stayed in the background in the caverns, out of the way. Much like the beetles they may have evolved from. After all, as I noted they can fly, they can link at will, they have nasty claws that work well on reducing a creature to a disturbing puree in speeds that a swarm of piranha can't match. Given the chance, they likely would have taken over the entire Tree. However that specific variety of humans known as the Ronay were doing it too... inevitably they met, and somehow one kept the other from taking over. Extermination wouldn't have worked, not if they could link. Too much ground. Besides, there's too many ages to kick them out of all.. so kick them out of some. And it extended to D'ni's caverns and the ages of it. Or maybe it was just the D'ni, the Ronay may have met them but it hadn't come that big... and the D'ni fled to a cavern that wasn't empty and needed a way to take it over without provoking a war.
It makes a lot of sense.. the bahro may have stuff in other ages for all we know, but the major issue was an old common one: territorial conflict. Both sides wanted the cavern. In turn Yeesha duped us into getting them freely into the cavern, probably since the D'ni didn't need it anymore, and helped convince Watson to remove the bonds on them. And then what did they do? Move in to all the places they were kicked out of, and rough up the wildlife in the pod age, move into the cavern and kill Wheely and Rose (though the latter only by the quake they caused), and get into battles in Releeshan. Of course, other bahro preferred a 'live and let live' approach, and hence it turned into a war (and in Releeshan it's likely a 3-way one).

The common (and most) D'ni didn't know about the Winged Ones.. they never had contact, the deeds done were old. Some knew of *bahro* as they traded the slaves, but these weren't the same thing. It was those slaves the cavern was really built on the backs of.. the Winged Ones were only kicked out. And Yeesha was generalizing about all bahro beast people, which she thought as a horrible curse of the D'ni (I'd say the slavery was, and probably winged one exile too, as they should have negotiated instead, but for all we know they tried). Hence the confusion.



But that's my take on it, based on the 5% fact we have, and 95% hopefully sensible extrapolation.

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