It is currently Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:33 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Neighborhoods
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
/me cracks open a can of worms and tosses it on the floor


Alright, so I have some questions about this whole Neighborhood thing. From what I understand, contrary to the general misconception that many people have, the neighborhoods (we're talking about Bevin) are NOT instanced.

To clarify instancing for those that don't know, instancing here means several "Yeesha-copies" of the same physical Age, similar to how our bookshelves in Relto work. Presumably, for each Age on our bookshelves, there is one corresponding "original" or "real" version of that Age-- and via Yeesha-magic, we simply get a fresh carbon-copy of that Age when we visit it for the first time. It's identical, except it isn't the "real" one, and therefore isn't global-- it's a copy, so it's ours, and what happens to the "original" does not affect our copy. And anytime you visit a link to that Age, you are automatically sent to your "copy" of that Age, also via Yeesha magic.

Now there are Ages that are global, but only for certain areas. For example, the garden Ages Eder Delin and Eder Tsogal; these are instanced, but they are only instanced to specific neighborhoods, and anyone who links using THAT book in THAT neighborhood goes to THAT Age, and not their own "instance" of it.

Furthermore, there are also "original" Ages or locations that are visitable, such as Ae'gura. The standard Nexus link will take you to the "original" Ae'gura, however the Bahro stones in the neighborhoods take you to an instanced version of Ae'gura for that neighborhood, just like the garden Ages or the Gahreesen books.

Now, here is the important distinction: each of these "instanced" versions of the "original" Age are identical in every way upon their creation. The only changes are the ones that players themselves enact within the Age upon visiting it, but the instances start the same for everyone. Each player's Teledahn may be in a slightly different configuration than any other player's, but only because they have physically enacted changes within their instance; each time a person links to an instance of an Age for the first time, it is identical to every other untouched instance.

Alright, so now we've established what instancing is. The important distinction is that an instance is identical in every way to every other instance at the moment of its creation.

The Neighborhoods are NOT instanced because they carry subtle variations from each other. The stained glass windows in the book room are different; the ornamentation in the light garden is different (i.e. fungus or lanterns); from what I remember, not every 'hood has a clock; some hoods have lanterns near the book room whereas others do not.

THESE CANNOT BE INSTANCES because, upon the first visit by the first visitor, they differ from each other. So then, here is the general conclusion:

Each "Bevin" is not in fact an individual "Bevin", but is a suburban-type Neighborhood within the Bevin district. Thus the major objections when people refer to their neighborhoods as Bevins. If the neighborhood you live in is called 'Briargate', or 'Windy Estates', or whatever the fiery abyss they think of to call neighborhoods these days, you don't say "hey, would you like to visit my Windy Estates?" when offering someone a trip to your neighborhood. No, you say, "would you like to come to my neighborhood?" upon which your friend asks, "what is the name of the neighborhood and/or how can I reach it?" To which you reply, "the name of the neighborhood is Windy Estates, located on Twitching Eyeball lane, just south of Blooter Street."

However, this presents us with a problem: this means that A) we all live in the same district, since nobody has a neighborhood outside of Bevin, and B) there are a lot of nearly-identical suburb-type caves clustered right next to each other high up on the Cavern wall in nearly the exact same location. Why are they in the same location, you ask? Because all the telescopes are positioned in almost the same spot, pointing in the same direction, which implies they can't be very far from each other. The only telescope that is positioned in a visibly different location is the one in Kirel, this implying that Kirel is near the big conglomerate of caves we call Bevin, but not a part of it.

So now we've got a new problem. The neighborhoods in the Bevin district are all obviously in the almost exact same location, and yet they number anywhere from the 50's to the 100's, based on how many Neighborhoods were listed in the Nexus at any given time, and also taking into account the number of private 'hoods that weren't listed. So how do you squeeze 50 very large caves into the "same spot" along the Cavern wall, close enough to where each telescope can be in the same location and still be pointing at the same object in the distance?

Furthermore, is there even enough room on the Cavern wall to fit that many nearly-identical caves? And if so, why isn't such an unusual formation visible from Ae'gura?

The Bevin district breaks all the rules. It's not instanced, yet breaks the physical rules to the point where it would have to be instanced in order to exist in the form that we saw in MO:UL. Perhaps it is instanced in some freaky arrangement that allows for automatic variations within each instance, and the people who have been calling them "Bevins" have been right all along? Or perhaps there is some strange blend of the two happening?

The obvious answer to these questions is laziness on the part of Cyan; they needed to instance an area that, according to canon, isn't instanced, but instead of finding ways to make this change congruous, such as shifting the position of the telescope in each 'hood or adjusting the size and shape of each cave, they just threw up some lights here and there or tossed in fungus. The whole thing feels like a band-aid on a broken arm.

Begin speculations.

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
Add the GZ co-ordinates and the neighborhood thing gets even more annoying. You got the idea of the neighborhoods down, though. If it weren't for the GZ co-ordinates, you could say that the neighborhoods are just so close together that you can't see a variation in the telescope views.

The problem is that we're being too picky. After all, we should be able to see people's names in other neighborhoods since they're supposedly in the same Age. We should also be able to see names of people in the City and the Great Zero, etc. We can invent explanations like linear KI signal fragmentation and targeted synchronized co-ordinate drift, but in the end it's just a byproduct of being picky.

There are logical gameplay reasons as well as technical ones for the way things are. People would get confused over the mass of people they see upon entry to any Ae'gura location were they to all appear on the KI, data sizes would balloon as you incorporated multiple views and configurations of the Ae'gura islands for each neighborhood and so on. In the end, until we can merge all areas in the City into one instance which can be traversed physically (and not by linking), then there will always be a fairly logical reason for the neighborhoods and other city locations to appear instanced even though they shouldn't be. (This is also a good reason for why the DRC shouldn't have recognized instances in MOUL to begin with.)

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:33 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:11 am
Posts: 2633
Not to mention that the DRC mentioned they were restoring multiple hoods for when the people came into D'ni.

I'm of the opinion that the hoods are "all in the same place" because of KI-co-oords which instead of showing different numbers showed the same, which only helped the rise of the misconception that the hoods are instanced.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
Whilyam wrote:
Add the GZ co-ordinates and the neighborhood thing gets even more annoying. You got the idea of the neighborhoods down, though. If it weren't for the GZ co-ordinates, you could say that the neighborhoods are just so close together that you can't see a variation in the telescope views.

The problem is that we're being too picky. After all, we should be able to see people's names in other neighborhoods since they're supposedly in the same Age. We should also be able to see names of people in the City and the Great Zero, etc. We can invent explanations like linear KI signal fragmentation and targeted synchronized co-ordinate drift, but in the end it's just a byproduct of being picky.

There are logical gameplay reasons as well as technical ones for the way things are. People would get confused over the mass of people they see upon entry to any Ae'gura location were they to all appear on the KI, data sizes would balloon as you incorporated multiple views and configurations of the Ae'gura islands for each neighborhood and so on. In the end, until we can merge all areas in the City into one instance which can be traversed physically (and not by linking), then there will always be a fairly logical reason for the neighborhoods and other city locations to appear instanced even though they shouldn't be. (This is also a good reason for why the DRC shouldn't have recognized instances in MOUL to begin with.)


The pickiness is certainly a factor, and I won't deny it. But we're picky because Cyan is so good at filling in gaps and making things fit together, so it bothers me when such critically simple things like this don't. I think a better solution to this problem would have been to scrap the whole "district" idea and just make the neighborhoods identical and instanced. At least that way everything makes sense, even if it's not as cool.

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:31 am 
Well, is it "being picky" or is it applying logic? Logic says that if I am at the same KI co-ordinates as you, and I can't see you and you can't see me and neither of us is hiding behind a box, we must be in different instances of D'ni, or something of the kind.

Being picky would be noticing this and complaining about Cyan getting it wrong. Noticing this and straining our brains to find explanations that work within the game's logic and don't outrage common sense...that's being a fan.

A possible compromise is that there are up to ten separate neighbourhoods in the Bevin district, remarkably alike except for the odd lamp or clock, and that those are instanced out the wazoo to produce the several hundred hoods we saw in MOUL. Me, I blame Yeesha. Instancing's all her fault anyway, so this is probably just another wacky side effect.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
"Bevin district"? what are you talking about? we KNOW (from the DRC) that Bevin is a single 'hood in D'ni, and it looks like the 'hoods as we know them. The "real" Bevin was introduced during choru.

Sadly, we got to excuse that all D'ni 'hoods are copies, and that's really lame. I can't blame Cyan, because they first designed the whole 'hoods system back at 2003 when they first began with Uru, making a random 'hood maker so each 'hood is different, may have been overwhelming for them at the time. Luckily, we get openUru so we can do it. I will do it, if I knew how to.

I also think treating instances IC isn't good. Instances are game mechanism for singleplayer areas in a multiplayer game,and that's how they should be treated. I didn't I see you in teledahn if we were there at the same time? I don't know. That's how we should answer. Just don't IC it.

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:31 pm
Posts: 796
Location: Sweden
Oh! Do come off it!
The hoods are not instanced ages. They are game instances of one place on the planet earth. Just as "the" Ae'gura one reaches by linking from a bahro stone is. It's practical not frustrating. I do wish there were easy ways of meeting up in one particular game instance of the city, maybe there is. Generally MOUL was not that crowded and I only found the need once or twice.

To fuel the flaming one may argue that it is sensibel to call it Bevin with this outlook. There is only one Bevin. That is where we are. But it has a hundred OC names.*

What does this mean?
Well if we stick with hoods they are really IC instances of "something". Maybe the whole city?

Stick with Bevin and we are all in the same place, divided for practical purposes.

All of this makes perfect sense and I'm not bothered which ever. Also I realize there may allready exist good official constructed thruths to rely on.



*–– So why are they in the very IC nexus then? "nitwit"!
–– Er, I dunno!

_________________
--- in our hearts our dreams are still the same ---


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 1:01 pm 
The stranger wrote:
"Bevin district"? what are you talking about? we KNOW (from the DRC) that Bevin is a single 'hood in D'ni, and it looks like the 'hoods as we know them. The "real" Bevin was introduced during choru.

Sadly, we got to excuse that all D'ni 'hoods are copies, and that's really lame. I can't blame Cyan, because they first designed the whole 'hoods system back at 2003 when they first began with Uru, making a random 'hood maker so each 'hood is different, may have been overwhelming for them at the time. Luckily, we get openUru so we can do it. I will do it, if I knew how to.

I also think treating instances IC isn't good. Instances are game mechanism for singleplayer areas in a multiplayer game,and that's how they should be treated. I didn't I see you in teledahn if we were there at the same time? I don't know. That's how we should answer. Just don't IC it.


Well, for a start, what I'm talking about is what the original poster (Calam) was talking about.

And I don't see any reason why we shouldn't address what seem to be gaping holes in the logic of the game if we choose to, and the number of possible explanations that people have come up with show (a) that we're perfectly capable of dealing with these things IC if we wish, and (b) that that's how we enjoy playing the game. You don't have to. No-one compels you.

Let's all just get along.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
(the following post should be read with a big IMO on top)

I may not understand your point, and if I don't than: sorry, this is not toward you. I think having a more interesting game is better than coming up with ways to think it's a more interesting game. I don't care for speculations- I do that myself. But if people would like the 'hoods to stay as they are just to speculate more about why they have the same coordinates or why they all look the same, than it's a shame IMO. It's... it's like people missing the lag in the city because it brings back memories from 2003 (not that I see anyone saying so, but you get the point). I just hope that once we pull the lag out people won't claim it back! :wink:

Anyway, I rather speculate about speculate-worthy stuff (and there are, believe me. Like story speculations, or "where are the gahreesen monsters?" (pretty boring, but an example), which indeed can be explained by "cyan didn't want them there", but it's not shouting "I'm just a mistake!") than speculate about why the 'hoods have the same coordinates- because it's obviously a mistake, or why the 'hoods look the same- because it's obviously a result of lack of staff/technology/budget to make some kind of a random 'hood maker (I mean, D'ni can't really look the same EVERYWHERE, right? :shock: ).

No, I'm really really not telling you to stop speculating, and I may do that myself. But **** in my opinion **** these things don't deserve an IC answer just because we can come up with one, because ****in my opinion**** it always comes up strange. All D'ni looks the same?

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
Quote:
"Bevin district"? what are you talking about? we KNOW (from the DRC) that Bevin is a single 'hood in D'ni, and it looks like the 'hoods as we know them. The "real" Bevin was introduced during choru.


You completely missed the point. Bevin is not a single 'hood because there are hundreds of them. It's like having hundreds of neighborhoods within a housing development... Are they all the same neighborhood? Of course not. Now, was this the way Cyan intended the whole thing to be perceived? No, I don't think so, because from a singe-player perspective, Bevin and Kirel make perfect sense. In single-player, there is one Bevin and one Kirel and they are both neighborhoods and they are very close to each other. This is logical. But having hundreds of copies of one, and not the other, and then having Cyan distinctly point out IC that they were not instanced by Yeesha... What are we supposed to believe? It's like they took a single-player concept and tried to force it into an MMO environment. Why couldn't they just say that Yeesha instanced that 'hood only? And instead of the DRC restoring "hundreds" of neighborhoods, why couldn't they just have worked on one large one to fit everyone, which Yeesha then stepped in an instanced for all Relto-book holders?

There are so many more logical, easier ways that this could have been done... But given the way it has been done, we're forced to look at it in a certain way that doesn't make sense. It's like the issue with the drain-pipe in Teledahn. Someone didn't really think that puzzle through because it's physically impossible. And that's no small nitpick-- I noticed the issues with that whole concept the first time I played it on my own. At first I wasn't sure what was bothering me about it, until I really began exploring and understanding the Age, and then realized that somebody didn't think about the physical properties of water.

This is the same situation. It feels like the mechanism and idea itself shifted over several permutations and never quite found its way.

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Last edited by Calam on Sat May 30, 2009 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
I guess you are right. I just hope this will be fixed at openUru (random 'hood maker?) because the identical 'hoods excuse is just sad.

And about the teledahn pipe problem: I never thought about that, if the pipe is going upwards, how is the water going inside and disappearing? anti-gravity?

But in my opinion, that's just one of the proper speculation. If it was lame, you were right. But unlike the identical 'hoods, which *is* lame, the pipe isn't major and not so lame. We could speculate: maybe there's some sort of a suck system at the end of the pipe, which just sucks the water up? maybe teledahn water, like in riven, has special properties? remember- these are the ages, you never know what strange things you may find!

And thinking about that, maybe the world indeed needs to be a whole lot more detailed... like, when you drain the water, you hear strange sounds from the pipe, so you know something is sucking the water up... or something. I'm thinking Riven- this game was so detailed, I think this is what makes it great- partly.

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
The stranger wrote:
I guess you are right. I just hope this will be fixed at openUru (random 'hood maker?) because the identical 'hoods excuse is just sad.

And about the teledahn pipe problem: I never thought about that, if the pipe is going upwards, how is the water going inside and disappearing? anti-gravity?

But in my opinion, that's just one of the proper speculation. If it was lame, you were right. But unlike the identical 'hoods, which *is* lame, the pipe isn't major and not so lame. We could speculate: maybe there's some sort of a suck system at the end of the pipe, which just sucks the water up? maybe teledahn water, like in riven, has special properties? remember- these are the ages, you never know what strange things you may find!

And thinking about that, maybe the world indeed needs to be a whole lot more detailed... like, when you drain the water, you hear strange sounds from the pipe, so you know something is sucking the water up... or something. I'm thinking Riven- this game was so detailed, I think this is what makes it great- partly.


Yes, Riven is a good example-- because even though everything is weird and strange and new, there is a reason for every single little thing you come across, and if you put it together, it all makes sense.

I think Gondar outlined the whole problem with Teledahn in another thread, but there's more to the problem than just the fact that the pipe is curved up. The impression is that all the water in that tank drained through the tiny grate at the bottom... And while that's possible, there is NO WAY all the water in that tank could drain as fast as it does in the game. Furthermore, if the pipe is flooded, why doesn't it also flood the prison chamber via the big gaping tear in the side of the pipe? There are some major problems with the logic behind that puzzle, and while on the surface it makes sense, once you actually think about it, it doesn't add up.

Same thing with the 'hoods. The more you try to explain it, the less sense it makes. The real question for me is... since Cyan is so good at making everything in their games congruous, how did these huge mistakes slip through at all? Did they not think that Myst fans would pick the whole mechanism to death? Because that's what we're known for...

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
I'm not so surprised about the pipe, because I bet there are some explanations for that, and all we need is something (again, not lame like "all d'ni looks the same") from Cyan Worlds.

But as for the 'hoods, I am. I suppose this is because everything was so new to them, that they didn't put much work on the details. In Riven, for example, I believe they knew what to do and how to do because of the success with "myst"... yet uru was all new and strange to them, and so they tried to make it the most dynamic, and tried to do great graphics and puzzles, that they didn't mind the details. And that's what I like about the openUru. We can finish the job.

And yes, although I'm not to concerned with "how the water is going up" (we could think of an exlpanation), I would add in openUru (again if I knew how to) a bigger pipe end and I would make a flooded prison.

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:25 am
Posts: 2031
Location: Sadly in Germany
Calam wrote:
Bevin is not a single 'hood because there are hundreds of them.


It is, and there aren't. There are hundreds of neighborhoods, and they happen to look quite similar to Bevin, but they're not.

Quote:
It's like the issue with the drain-pipe in Teledahn. Someone didn't really think that puzzle through because it's physically impossible. And that's no small nitpick-- I noticed the issues with that whole concept the first time I played it on my own. At first I wasn't sure what was bothering me about it, until I really began exploring and understanding the Age, and then realized that somebody didn't think about the physical properties of water.


Given your assumptions that 1) it must be water, 2) it must be water as we know it, and 3) its physical properties, despite being in an entirely different universe, must be identical to those of water as we know it on Earth, I have to wonder if you've ever played Riven.

_________________
Sören Nils 'chucker' Kuklau

(Or something.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
Quote:
It is, and there aren't. There are hundreds of neighborhoods, and they happen to look quite similar to Bevin, but they're not.


I'm starting to get this feeling of deja vu, like I'm saying the same thing over and over. I'm starting to get this feeling of deja vu, like I'm saying the same thing over and over. I'm starting to get this feeling of deja vu...

If they look almost exactly like the Bevin neighborhood model, and they're in the same spot as all the other neighborhoods under the collective title "Bevin", and if they're all titled "Bevin" in the Nexus, then the word "Bevin" must apply to all of them and not just one; and since all the neighborhoods exist in a large conglomerate of similar caves in the same location, the logical conclusion for the use of the word "Bevin" would then be to label it as a district. Sort of like a housing development where the name of the neighborhood (remember the Windy Heights example?) applies to all the houses contained in that neighborhood, but each house isn't named "Windy Heights".

Quote:
Given your assumptions that 1) it must be water, 2) it must be water as we know it, and 3) its physical properties, despite being in an entirely different universe, must be identical to those of water as we know it on Earth, I have to wonder if you've ever played Riven.


And I have to wonder if you've ever read Sharper's journal. Or why you would automatically assume that the water is somehow the same as that in Riven. Riven was a special place Written by a megalomaniac; somehow I don't think his weird experiments on the physical properties of water were something that was regularly repeated in D'ni.

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: