It is currently Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:31 pm
Posts: 796
Location: Sweden
Don't drag the non issue Teledahn discussion into this. Please. There is a thread that dealt with those questions.

_________________
--- in our hearts our dreams are still the same ---


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:25 am
Posts: 2031
Location: Sadly in Germany
Calam wrote:
If they look almost exactly like the Bevin neighborhood model, and they're in the same spot as all the other neighborhoods


They're not in the same spot. The coordinates the KI gives are clearly wrong.

Quote:
the logical conclusion for the use of the word "Bevin" would then be to label it as a district.


But it isn't a district. Since when has culture ever been based on logic, anyway? Are Berlin, Germany and Berlin, MA, US the same town to you? They're named the same, right?

Canon isn't based on what makes sense, but on what's been established. Bevin hasn't been established as a district, but as a neighborhood.

Quote:
Or why you would automatically assume that the water is somehow the same as that in Riven.


I never said any such thing. If you can wrap your head around holes in water, surely you can, too, for whatever quibble you may have with Teledahn's drains?

Quote:
Riven was a special place Written by a megalomaniac; somehow I don't think his weird experiments on the physical properties of water were something that was regularly repeated in D'ni.


Well, somehow I think an age where some animals are shot and others are brutally imprisoned could very much be written by a megalomaniac.

_________________
Sören Nils 'chucker' Kuklau

(Or something.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
*puts on his D'ni/Uru history nut hat* Or do I ever take it off?

Calam wrote:
Quote:
It is, and there aren't. There are hundreds of neighborhoods, and they happen to look quite similar to Bevin, but they're not.


If they look almost exactly like the Bevin neighborhood model, and they're in the same spot as all the other neighborhoods under the collective title "Bevin", and if they're all titled "Bevin" in the Nexus, then the word "Bevin" must apply to all of them and not just one; and since all the neighborhoods exist in a large conglomerate of similar caves in the same location, the logical conclusion for the use of the word "Bevin" would then be to label it as a district. Sort of like a housing development where the name of the neighborhood (remember the Windy Heights example?) applies to all the houses contained in that neighborhood, but each house isn't named "Windy Heights".

Two problems. One, they look almost exactly alike. Now, I don't know if the neighborhood's differences were different back in Prologue, but in Uru Live the three big changes were: 1. cracks on the floor 2. lamp styles 3. the mushroom brackets on the garden lamps. Accepting for the moment that the neighborhoods ARE instances, those changes are unique among Uru instances. Think about the other places where instancing takes place. It's akin to your Gira having yellow steam lamps while your friend's has blue lamps. Or your Teledahn having fungus growing in the first shroom while your friend's doesn't. The reason instancing is used as a label is because the changes are supposedly so subtle that they are not perceptible. Or that a change is so far away that it would not truly affect the Age. The only exception to this is Relto. However Relto is a Yeesha Age and also is designed by Yeesha to change with the explorer as he/she finds pages. Such is not the case with the neighborhoods.

Two, the fact that the neighborhoods are listed as "Bevins" in the Nexus is only a recent development. In Prologue there was one neighborhood named Bevin and the rest were known as "<Person's Name>'s Neighborhood". It's a way to keep the names shorter for the Nexus.

Quote:
Quote:
Given your assumptions that 1) it must be water, 2) it must be water as we know it, and 3) its physical properties, despite being in an entirely different universe, must be identical to those of water as we know it on Earth, I have to wonder if you've ever played Riven.


And I have to wonder if you've ever read Sharper's journal. Or why you would automatically assume that the water is somehow the same as that in Riven. Riven was a special place Written by a megalomaniac; somehow I don't think his weird experiments on the physical properties of water were something that was regularly repeated in D'ni.

We like numbered lists, it seems. So continuing the tradition:

1. chucker wasn't saying it was the same as Riven's
2. Gehn didn't intentionally write Riven's water as it turned out (at least not to my knowledge). It was another byproduct of his poor writing style.
3. I agree with chucker about the possible variations in the water. Riven's water may or may not have been a regular occurrence in D'ni Ages, but there's nothing to say Ages didn't have water or other elements with different properties than that of Earth's. Hey, forget the water, the D'ni cavern on Earth has numerous life-forms that are alien to people on the surface.
4. and lastly, Sharper mentioned that the pump he was using wasn't originally meant to pump water. Thus we don't know what it was meant to pump. It could have been meant to pump molten rock or air or live chickens for all I know. As such we're unable to know the size or power of the pump.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
Quote:
They're not in the same spot. The coordinates the KI gives are clearly wrong.


Right, left out an "almost"-- sorry.

Quote:
But it isn't a district. Since when has culture ever been based on logic, anyway? Are Berlin, Germany and Berlin, MA, US the same town to you? They're named the same, right?

Canon isn't based on what makes sense, but on what's been established. Bevin hasn't been established as a district, but as a neighborhood.


Ok now it's just an issue of semantics. I only use the word "district" because I feel the word "neighborhood" applies to a specific area and not necessarily the whole area. If we decide to call the area incorporating all the neighborhoods a "neighborhood", then what do we call each individual portion of it? The point is, using the same name for two different things is confusing. If you wanted to call each section a "neighborhood" and call the collective group of caves a "bivouac", fine. But we have to call the whole area something, and I don't see why calling it a "district" is any more a misuse of the term than calling it a bivouac.

Quote:
Don't drag the non issue Teledahn discussion into this. Please. There is a thread that dealt with those questions.


I agree. I used it as an example initially, but I don't want to make this thread about that.

Quote:
Two, the fact that the neighborhoods are listed as "Bevins" in the Nexus is only a recent development. In Prologue there was one neighborhood named Bevin and the rest were known as "<Person's Name>'s Neighborhood". It's a way to keep the names shorter for the Nexus.


Yet another thing Cyan did to add more confusion to an already confusing situation. Again, I understand the OOC reasoning behind all of it-- I'm just curious as to why Cyan didn't think it through from an IC perspective, since they are usually so good at doing that. And if there even is a likely IC explanation at all.

So the real question we need to be asking here is this: since the neighborhoods obviously aren't "instances" in the IC traditional sense that we see throughout the game, then how do we explain them from an IC perspective?

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Last edited by Calam on Sat May 30, 2009 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:55 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:58 pm
Posts: 2020
Location: The Netherlands
I think the 'hoods are all in the same instance... As Tweek mentioned, the DRC clearly talked about the 'hoods as multiple physical places on their old timeline. Remember that at that time the DRC didn't want to know anything about instances or other Yeesha magic. (Remember Dr. Watson's speech in Kirel?) Clearly they were different physical places, otherwise the DRC's stance wouldn't make any sense.
Of course they are instances technically, but that's just artistic license in my opinion. I know that Uru is supposed to be 100% real and that artistic license usually only applies to Myst, but Cyan has to work with technical limitations. Just like we ignore the fact that the sun doesn't move in the Cleft, we should act as if the neighbourhoods are separate places in the same instance despite the technical details that speak against it.

It would be nice to have some official word from RAWA about this, because there is no way that we can find an answer and convince everyone, even though this concerns a very fundamental issue. We actually ought to know the answer to this.

_________________
URU blog | Archives of the Restoration


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:57 am 
Okay. So on the one hand we need to explain why there are hundreds of hoods or Bevins or Windy Heightseses or whatever you want to call them (side issue), all at ostensibly the same KI co-ordinates, all structurally identical, and on the other hand we need to explain why there are cosmetic differences between them, or on the third hand we don't need to explain any of this because it's just a game, man, and Cyan got it wrong.

I've already established myself as one of the explainers, but I don't want to fuel that argument any more, so...

[spoiler]Obviously there is some sort of instancing going on. One of the things Cyan has been very scrupulous about is the differentiation between pronouncements by Cyan (OOC) and by the DRC (IC). An obvious possible reason for that, on which I have placed great reliance in my explorations of Uru, is that while Cyan are effectively omniscient in regard to the D'niverse, characters within that 'verse such as the DRC are not; ergo, while Cyan's pronouncements will be absolutely reliable, the DRC's (and Yeesha's, and Sharper's, and Gehn's, and even Atrus's) will not. Because they have the power to be wrong.

So, if Cyan said the hoods were not instanced, we'd be in trouble. If the DRC say it, then there's wiggle room.

To my way of thinking, instancing was either an accident or a necessary evil anyway, an unintended consequence of the potentially endless duplication of Relto Ages. Logically, copies of the same Linking Book should link to the same Age, but since they observably don't in this case, there must be some reason, and this is the only one I can think of; something about the nature of Relto confers on Linking Books some of the properties of Descriptive Books. (Why this should happen falls well outside the boundaries of my knowledge. These be Yeesha's mysteries.) If Teledahn, Gahreesen and the other Ages with Linking Books are instanced as a result of this, then logically, the same will happen to D'ni, i.e. Earth. That explains multiple instances of the City, and implies multiple instances of every hood, not just the ones we call "Bevin" and "Kirel."

Logically, therefore, instancing can happen, and must have happened, whether the hoods we see are instanced or not. Against this we have the cosmetic variations between Bevins/hoods/whatevers, and the word of the DRC. I can't at this point account for those variations...I suggested earlier, just before we got into the you-say-tomato routine, that maybe there are a small number of almost-identical hoods in the same area and they got multiply instanced, but I'm not on solid ground with that. What's obvious is that there are only a small number of variations, and those variations are precisely duplicated--if a hood has a clock, then it's always the same clock, never a bigger one or a smaller one or a statue of Lord Rakeri doing the macarena with one stuck in his midriff. If there are cracks in the floor, they're always the same cracks, line for line. Same with the lamp brackets. That says some sort of instancing to me.

But as for the DRC's stance, I think we can safely discount it as being substantially no more reliable than any of ours. They come to D'ni in the same way we do, as outsiders looking in. Their theories on how linking works are no more than that, theories. And they place great reliance on the archetypical unreliable narrator, Yeesha, who says what she thinks will serve her purpose best at any given moment.

In the end, it comes down to the old question: what do you see? All these games are about that, about using your senses and your brain to explore the world. You can, if you wish, discount the evidence of eyes and ears, and even cast doubt on the reliability of a machine (the KI) on whose evidence you're otherwise willing to jump off a cliff, but I can't see how that makes the experience more enjoyable. If I see multiple almost-identical hoods, with a small number of variations multiply repeated, then I'd rather deal with that and try to explain it than pretend the (game) world is other than it is.

Cyan had to make numerous compromises in the troubled course of Uru's development, mostly due to the vagaries of publishers, like Ubi insisting on single-player playability in what was always supposed to be a multi-player game. Had it developed as they wanted, I can see them bringing out a new and slightly different hood every few months (and the players promptly chorusing "oh no, not another ^&$%£^& hood!", but then that's us for you). But the world is as it is, and you either deal with it or spend your time wishing it was different.[/spoiler]

I don't have a complete explanation, but then that's true of lots of things in Uru, and indeed in real life. You find what works for you.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
As long as D'ni looks the same, I will not accept any IC exlpanation. OOC I can deal with it, of course, as always. But that's just me.

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
Calam wrote:
Yet another thing Cyan did to add more confusion to an already confusing situation. Again, I understand the OOC reasoning behind all of it-- I'm just curious as to why Cyan didn't think it through from an IC perspective, since they are usually so good at doing that. And if there even is a likely IC explanation at all.

So the real question we need to be asking here is this: since the neighborhoods obviously aren't "instances" in the IC traditional sense that we see throughout the game, then how do we explain them from an IC perspective?

I think a lot of the more recent problems arose because Cyan simply didn't have time to deal with them all. Like why do Delin and Tsogahl have journeys?

As for an IC explanation for the neighborhoods. The simplest explanation would be that, since the neighborhoods are so far off, the KI co-ordinate system is highly inaccurate. Similar to how there are no KI co-ordinates in the Cleft even though it's part of D'ni. Additionally, the KI may also only show those certain co-ordinates because they belong to the original Bevin and it was the first neighborhood the DRC trained the GZ on when they were restoring it.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:25 am
Posts: 2031
Location: Sadly in Germany
Calam wrote:
If we decide to call the area incorporating all the neighborhoods a "neighborhood",


Huh? We don't. The area incorporating all of them is the city proper, which runs along the cavern wall.

Quote:
The point is, using the same name for two different things is confusing.


I've never heard anyone refer to all neighborhoods as one neighborhood, nor would I understand why anyone would do that.

Quote:
But we have to call the whole area something, and I don't see why calling it a "district" is any more a misuse of the term than calling it a bivouac.


Well, the way I read your post, you were referring to Bevin as a district. Since Bevin is an individual neighborhood, that doesn't make sense. To refer to the collection of all neighborhoods as a district is more sound.

Quote:
Yet another thing Cyan did to add more confusion to an already confusing situation. Again, I understand the OOC reasoning behind all of it-- I'm just curious as to why Cyan didn't think it through from an IC perspective, since they are usually so good at doing that. And if there even is a likely IC explanation at all.


As unfortunate as the situation is, it clearly happened for reasons of constrained resources.

Whilyam wrote:
I think a lot of the more recent problems arose because Cyan simply didn't have time to deal with them all.


Indeed.

Quote:
Like why do Delin and Tsogahl have journeys?


Absolutely. Delin and Tsogahl make far more sense as journey-less Ages. While their puzzle is unusual, it still feels tacked-on in a rushed attempt to give explorers more to do.

_________________
Sören Nils 'chucker' Kuklau

(Or something.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:05 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:44 am
Posts: 1282
Location: Orlando
darn Dirty Apes wrote:
The neighborhoods are just instances of Bevin! EVERY NEIGHBRHOOD IS BEVIN! WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO VISIT KIREL'S BEVIN?!


*hauls himself out of the tunnels, slowly looking up at the remains of the arch of Kerath lying mostly covered in the lake, just barely visible and recognizable above the surface*

You maniacs! You blew it up! YOU BLEW IT UP! darn you all! darn YOU ALL TO fiery abyss!

_________________
-vid (KI: 00201880)
The Age Linker's Guide
It is up to you to create your own adventures today!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:31 pm
Posts: 796
Location: Sweden
LOL
He! Now we're getting somewhere.

Actually. From a game perspective there is something here that I'd like to ad.

Once the cavern is absolutely shock full of explorers at all times, I'd like a "physical" exit from the hood out into the city. There'd be two exits then. One nexus link and one physical. The physical exits leads to a hood specific "game instance" city for quiet exploring with hooders. The nexus link leads to the city proper.

At first glance one might prefer it to be the other way around for logical purposes, but then where does the door back into the hood lead.

This idea does not fit with the current solution for personal exploring through the personal city instance linked to from the book in relto. It is one city to many.

Let's then return to the idea that the physical exits leads to the main public city:
Let's assume that the hoods along with Bevin and Kirel are a tiered cluster of living areas built to look the same with the odd difference and reversednes (depending if it is to the right or left in the corridor if you take my meaning).
So exit into the city leads through some sort of elevator thingy with a nexus like panel in it. To the city is as easy as pressing the exit button and opening the door.
Getting home is choosing the right hood in a nexus-like list of public hoods including Bevin and Kirel. After som buzzing and humming (and a visual effect) one opens the door to a hallway in the nice old hood, Bevin, you call it.
Would not this be a nice way to solve the problem with the hoods dropping off the list in nexus?
Walking back towards the hood from a city gathering feels nice.

_________________
--- in our hearts our dreams are still the same ---


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Right behind you.
The problem with that is, if I recall properly, I seem to remember the DRC saying the 'hoods were only accessible by link.

Quote:
Huh? We don't. The area incorporating all of them is the city proper, which runs along the cavern wall.


I'm talking about the specific cluster of caves. Yes, the area below and surrounding them is the city proper, but what do we call that specific cluster of neighborhood-compartments titled 'Bevin'? Bevin can't be the name the individual neighborhoods and the name of the collective group of caves. So what do we call one or the other? I say, just call the neighborhoods neighborhoods. What do we call that collective group? A 'bivouac'? A 'district'? It seems like it would be more logical to have the name "Bevin" encompass the collective group of neighborhoods, label that a 'district', and simply refer to each individual neighborhood within that cluster as a "neighborhood". Why is this a hard concept?

Quote:
Well, the way I read your post, you were referring to Bevin as a district. Since Bevin is an individual neighborhood, that doesn't make sense. To refer to the collection of all neighborhoods as a district is more sound.


See above paragraph. Instead of calling each neighborhood-compartment "Bevin" and thus having 100 different neighborhoods with the exact same name, why not just call the whole blob of 'hoods "Bevin", and label it a district? So the correct usage when using the name Bevin would be in reference to the Bevin Neighborhood District.

It just makes sense. Yes, that's not how it's been used up until now, but if we're expected to believe that the 'hoods aren't instanced, we need to straighten some naming issues out.

Quote:
As for an IC explanation for the neighborhoods. The simplest explanation would be that, since the neighborhoods are so far off, the KI co-ordinate system is highly inaccurate. Similar to how there are no KI co-ordinates in the Cleft even though it's part of D'ni. Additionally, the KI may also only show those certain co-ordinates because they belong to the original Bevin and it was the first neighborhood the DRC trained the GZ on when they were restoring it.


Well the biggest hurdle to cross, IC, is the KI-coordinate problem. Everything else is small details compared to that. And considering how buggy the KI's tend to be, and how unreliable and inexplicable the whole marker system is, I'd say it's fair to assume that those coordinates are faulty.

_________________
I miss my old signature.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
Here's an idea: fix it in openUru to say "neighborhood" as it should.

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:42 pm 
Offline
Creative Kingdoms

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:06 pm
Posts: 6223
Location: Everywhere, all at once
The brevity of "Bevin," being five characters instead of the twelve in "Neighborhood," does not make a justifiable design change to fit for length when "Hood" is shorter and more accurate. That's even assuming an intentional design change, which I doubt it was. If you want short, use "Hood."

_________________
OpenUru.org: An Uru Project Resource Site : Twitter : Make a commitment.
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
Calam wrote:
The problem with that is, if I recall properly, I seem to remember the DRC saying the 'hoods were only accessible by link.

For some reason I remember the DRC saying that the hoods could be accessed through tunnels in the cave wall. I certainly get that impression from Aitrus' map Link

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: