Fact or fiction? a real cleft exists?

Chakra · **Joined:** Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:03 am **Posts:** 22

Am interested in finding more info regarding the New Mexico cleft theory...was there truly an area found in reallife that the cleft is based on? I was told that pottery shards were found dating back thousands of years. Any info/links/proof pointing to this being fact would be appreciated!

not finding confirmation with Guild of Archeologists at this time, but much virtual discussion on location of cleft, etc.

Monkeyboy · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:36 pm

I'll be surprised if any pottery found in the SW was dated to more than 1500-1800 years old. And there have been numerous attempts by people to try and find the cleft through the means of Google Earth. So far, just nothing but "could-be's."

Firesign · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:43 pm

what do you mean "in real life"? you talk like people are playing a game or something.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:45 pm

The cleft itself, no, but keep in mind that the clef is actually remarkably narrow, barely visible until you are right up on it. However, I recall a thread that posted some candidates for the volcano that looked eerily similar to Uru's own interface.

As for SW culture... you're off by a very large factor. Artifacts from the Clovis culture (one of the earliest cultures in the New Mexico area) date back over 13,000 years. Which, incidentally, feeds into my theory that D'ni engineers who stayed on the surface after the first surface vents were built helped inspire the Clovis culture.

Monkeyboy · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:05 pm

DocOlanA wrote:

The cleft itself, no, but keep in mind that the clef is actually remarkably narrow, barely visible until you are right up on it. However, I recall a thread that posted some candidates for the volcano that looked eerily similar to Uru's own interface.

As for SW culture... you're off by a very large factor. Artifacts from the Clovis culture (one of the earliest cultures in the New Mexico area) date back over 13,000 years. Which, incidentally, feeds into my theory that D'ni engineers who stayed on the surface after the first surface vents were built helped inspire the Clovis culture.

The only artifacts to be found of Clovis culture are the stone tools associated with the spearpoint that are indicative of that culture. No pottery, no clothing, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the vent engineers were at D'ni around 7500 BCE, and that is no where near 13,000 years ago. According to the Clovis-first hypothesis, the peoples who traveled across Beringia (the land bridge between Alaska and Siberia) were already Clovis. I personally have issues with that and do believe there was probably a culture before Clovis. However, the sites in NM, I believe, are not at 13,000 but 11kya or later dates. Some of the oldest Clovis sites are, in fact, in Chile, South America. So, with this evidence if the D'ni did come to the surface at 13kya and influenced any technology, it surely wasn't Clovis.

Edit: Wrong on the Clovis, NM (Blackwater site) it is at 11,000BP or 12,950. But even so the if Clovis started in NM you would have dates radiating from NM as the oldest and becoming younger as you get to Chile. So, as of now, without an earlier date of Clovis in NM the theory still does not fit.

sythiar · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:13 pm

Maybe if you looked magnified the Mexican desert on Google Earth as much as you can and put your head really close to the screen... who knows...

sideshow118 · **Joined:** Thu May 25, 2006 1:00 am **Posts:** 538

The inspiration for the volcano is real. There's a picture of it in the Prima guide to Uru:CC. Looks pretty much exactly the same as in the game. Everything else is open for... um... speculation....

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:20 am

I misspoke about the Clovis-D'ni link, my bad. while I do speculate D'ni influence in paleo-indian culture, it was not Clovis culture. That's what I get for rattling off a response while in the middle of writing about the 17th century.

The 11,000 BCE date is for the Clovis culture in general. It indicates the culture existed at that point. NM artifacts do not appear until 9,000 BCE, but in a continually volatile field of study like paleo-indian archeology that doesn't mean as much as you might think. The unknowns about prehistoric, and even pre-Columbian America still vastly outweigh the knowns.

I will note that early Anasazi culture has baskets and other such as early as 1200 BC, though pottery itself does not show up until AD 500.

Rather than the Clovis culture, Ri'neref's missing engineers could have been responsible for Mexican civilization. The general migration of humans would still be southward according to most theories at this time, and since it's likely that the D'ni left without Ri'neref's permission they may well have thought it wise to leave the area. This would have been at or before 7530 BC. Sometime during this period the indigenous people of Mexico domesticated corn, and began forming civilizations. While these were nothing compared to the pre-Columbian Mesoamerican civilizations of the 2nd millennium BC, it did represent a major step forward. It could also explain some of the marked differences between Mesoamerican culture and agriculture and South American culture and agriculture, as the latter presumably developed on its own from fishing villages in Chile and Peru.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:27 am

Incidentally, personal theory about why we now link into the Relto rather than arriving at the Cleft: The Government found out about the D'ni. Think about it. Books that allow you to link anywhere, instantly? Perfect terrorist weapon. Clearly such technology must be contained. While the slow method of transport (one person at a time) plus the difficulty in writing a proper linking book would make the D'ni Art impractical for most military situations, the possibilities of a lone suicide bomber linking into a crowded square during a politician's speech is too dangerous to allow.

So, obviously, the government would be monitoring the cavern, and satellite footage of the area would be either modified or restricted completely. The economy and political and scientific environments being what they are there is as of yet no government push for study of the Cavern, but they are keeping people out. Of course, Yeesha keeps letting the called in. At first this would like have caused a panic, perhaps multiple times (quite likely corresponding with those dates when all traffic to the Cavern was disallowed,) but eventually it would be clear that the Called are not violent, and that for every trick they come up with to block Yeesha, she keeps getting us to our Reltos. Plus, technically the New Mexico site is private property, so the government legally doesn't have many options.

So they cannot shut the cavern down, and they cannot keep us from linking in. But they can keep us from walking in. Hence why none of us can leave the area of the Cleft on the surface, and why the Cleft doesn't show up on Google Earth (for national security reasons.) That might also be why the Great Shaft hasn't been opened yet, though it's just as likely that's because the DRC was not yet willing to mark it as "safe".

Tweek · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 12:11 am **Posts:** 2633

If the Government were seriously getting their hands on linking tech, we'd bee seeing very very very strict enforcements in place.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:12 am

I doubt the government would be getting their hands on linking tech. First, the linking books and the Art itself are more or less a black box to us. I'm sure somewhere a government agent managed to get his hands on a linking book, and a scientist is studying it, but really, it would be like Newton studying a PDA. Oh sure, easy enough for him to figure out how to use it, and maybe with a whole, WHOLE lot of work figure out how to duplicate one exactly, but to construct one himself? And beyond that, to understand the principles of why it works? That's us and the Art.

Because of this it's of limited use to a government. Again, even black ops can't really use it well, because only one person can link at a time, it makes a fairly audible "Wah wah wah wah" sound when it's used, and you have to have an exact description of the place you're linking to, written by someone who knows what to write in a linking book, to pull it off.

It's one of those "too limited in use to really develop, but we sure don't want anyone else getting their hands on it!" situations. Plus, we are in America, I'm pretty sure the Cleft is private property, and the DRC is powerful enough to raise a big legal stink if the government tried to strong-arm their way in. I mean, what are you going to do? Classify a book as a weapon? Maybe after you define it as a linking book, but why would you ever want to do that? Most people think of linking books as just something from a computer game series, why would you want to shatter that illusion?

It makes a certain kind of sense, when you think about how utterly difficult it is to get even military bureaucracy to do anything, especially in secret, on American soil.

Calam · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:51 am

sideshow118 wrote:

The inspiration for the volcano is real. There's a picture of it in the Prima guide to Uru:CC. Looks pretty much exactly the same as in the game. Everything else is open for... um... speculation....

That's not a volcano, that's a hill from which they based the volcano's design.

DocOlanA · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:55 am

I remember a thread back during GameTap Uru talking about volcanoes that fit the profile for the volcano we needed. I just can't find the thread.

KT · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:42 am

Actually, I keep my linking books in a safe place, so if the government ever comes looking for them, they have no way of knowing where I put them. I also occasionally do a random move of everything. I tend to be cautious. If word of my collection spread, I'd have people wah wah wah-ing into my house 24/7...imagine the chaos! :shock:

Karkadann · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:08 am

Tweek wrote:

If the Government were seriously getting their hands on linking tech, we'd bee seeing very very very strict enforcements in place.

Now theirs a Conspiracy waiting to happen......:Throws Pie at Tweek:

Fact or fiction? a real cleft exists?

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