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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:17 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
I hope to be able to say, when Uru Live begins, "Oh, geez, if Cyan had told me it was going to be like this, I'd have stopped screaming about it a long, long time ago!"

Odds are, if we actually get what we want and enjoy, it's because of necessary discussions like this.


That's cool.


~Joe Cool

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 am 
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Shields wrote:
Then you go for the "If you think you can do it better do it yourself" defense, how immature is that? You can use this to defend nearly every non-common task. Making a movie, cooking fancy restaurant food, designing new cars, and running a country can all be defended with that approach.


The fact remains that from first post to last, you're chimping on the sidelines, throwing sticks.

Easy work.

:wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:43 am 
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The fact remains that from first post to last, you're chimping on the sidelines, throwing sticks.


That is it. I am a monkey. Man your prods become more immature every time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 am 
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Hey what happened to picking on Yeesha? All of a sudden poor shields is getting the "Great Shaft."

@ Joey:

...for three, ...you haven't established anything. (Though, it has been established that Uru hasn't ended, and you seem determined not to accept that.)

I beg to differ... he's established & stimulated a 7 page discussion/debate(thus far) thread and has probably said the least of all of us!! C'mon you gotta' give him credit for that now Joey. Which I think this also ties in nicely with the reason I know I am here & as should also be continuously appreciated & found in JW's last comment:

Odds are, if we actually get what we want and enjoy, it's because of necessary discussions like this.

I couldn't agree with that more...very well said JW. And hey...if we don't... then at least we tried. Thanks shields!

Back @ Joey:

...for four... for-for... four-four... Heck, Uru has a great story, a great premise, and great characters. Uru is full of stories, in fact... I've never seen anything like it before. There's a story there, and you can't deny it.

URU is sure full of something all right...just not something I can say without getting into trouble! :wink: Just couldn't resist. Oh there is certainly a story & plot in existence... that can't be denied...but what can be denied is the degree of strength that this story/plot possesses. What cannot be denied is that MYST & RIVEN were extremely successful games for CYAN & that URU was a failure for CYAN & MYST V was no-where near as successful as RIVEN or MYST. Just on that basis alone (for Marantos) there is proof that "something" is not all there for MYST V & URU…to put a spin on Yeesha’s words: “Something in story, something unclear, something vague…” the plot/story is just one of these “somethings.”

To your comment on the Yeesha quote I used Joey...I already explained what the purpose of doing so was...so I’ll just repost that for you...

"…I simply took one quote from Yeesha & threw it up there for an example of what can be interpreted as "philosophical blabbering"...there are a ton of her quotes that have this way of writing to them. The point was not to start expanding, justifying and explaining what she meant by that statement...the point is that we can understand exactly what she says...but at a certain point it is completely overdone & can fit the terminology "philosophical blabbering" quite well...at least for me & others…"

See green eggs & ham for further explanation….

@ Marantos

I'll let shields fight his own battles but to the comment:

Hint: Because it didn't have a real story with real characters just doesn't cut it. Or any simple variations thereof.

I think you forgot to mention "philosophical blabbering" in your hint as well which is a big reason why I didn't like not only Yeesha but the story also. See green eggs & ham for further details.

@ Zander:

I apologise for the signature thing...

Apology accepted! No problem :D

I should never have let myself get drawn in. Sorry.

I don't think you should be apologizing for that... I think it's a good thing that you got sucked in & I think you have offered your perspective quite well. I hope you continue to do so.

Lastly @ tkwiggins

Two words: bitchin' tattoos.

:lol: :lol: You had me laughing pretty good with that one. I have to admit...the girl's got some pretty bitchin tats...however that doesn't mean I have to like her. heh :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:47 am 
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neosource wrote:
What cannot be denied is that MYST & RIVEN were extremely successful games for CYAN & that URU was a failure for CYAN & MYST V was no-where near as successful as RIVEN or MYST. Just on that basis alone (for Marantos) there is proof that "something" is not all there for MYST V & URU…

You cannot blame the different commercial success of games that were published 10 years apart in entirely different contexts only on the structure or the story of the games themselves.
Gamers have changed in these years, tastes have, the game market has.
Blaming it all on the different structure of Uru and EoA, comparing them to Myst and Riven, is a bit of a stretch.

Shields, why it is that you're only answering now to what you see as insults directed at you? Joey made very interesting points which required answers. Don't get angry, it only makes you overlook the constructive points of the discussion you started. :)

And, I will repeat this again: Uru was not meant to be a "Myst game", but many here continue to judge it following that canon of games. I love Riven, it was a piece of art. But we cannot compare Uru to Riven! Riven was a game, while Uru is more of an environment, a world to explore, a history to be learnt, a stage, as I already said.

P.S. JWPlatt, while I agree that these discussions are constructive, if done the right way, I'm sure that Live would have a "gripping storyline", even if we hadn't made this thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:16 am 
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The title of this thread reads "Make a real story this time".

Shields describes Uru as a "nonsense story", and uses the word "jibberish" to describe the elements of the Uru story, calling it "random philosophical blabbering".

Shields then begins the last sentence of his post with the words, "I think it's time to go back to real stories...", without specifying what he considers "real stories". It would have been helpful to the discussion if Shields had done so, since then we would have something specific to talk about.

Some others have come forward to opine that Myst and Riven have "strong" stories. I am puzzled by this. Myst presents us with virtually no story at all - or at least no story we can really discern until the final cutscene - and even then only if we get to the RIGHT final cutscene.
So what IS this strong story? A man has imprisoned his two neurotic sons. By choosing not to free either of his sons from their prison, we give the father the power to blast them into nothingness. "The page...did you bring the page?...Give me the page..."
What Myst gives us is the merest vague sketch of a very disfunctional family, led by a neurotic, flailing and ultimately vengeful father - a father we then help to destroy his sons.
Well, then - what do we learn from this strong story?
Does anyone in this strong story change, or grow? Are there any great themes in this story? Do we come away from this story with a new understanding or insight into the human condition?

No, no and no.

The "story", such as it is, in the original Myst game is empty, pointless psychodrama. A few whacko characters, a lot of puzzles to solve that have nothing to do with anything. Nothing more.

Oh - not *quite* nothing more. Myst has something else - something that has little to do with its slim-to-the-point-of-vaporousness story. It has a creepy, strongly flavored atmosphere of veiled menace, combined with a certain quiet stillness - the feeling you get on a cold autumn morning as the fog hangs low in the air, transforming the world into a haunted, different place.

Uru has some of that feeling as well. So did Riven.

The Myst games are mainly about how you feel as you play them. That is their real value, and the source of their lasting appeal. Not one of them has a particularly strong story.

As for the original post in this thread - I get the point. Shields didn't like Uru. That's all there is to it - and look what we've done. We've turned this simple opinion into a platform for personal attacks on each other, for grandstanding and parading our prejudices.

God, I love you people. YOU are what will make Uru the best computer game ever. We are writing the story of Uru right here, and you don't even know it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:08 pm 
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Quote:
So what IS this strong story? A man has imprisoned his two neurotic sons. By choosing not to free either of his sons from their prison, we give the father the power to blast them into nothingness. "The page...did you bring the page?...Give me the page..."


Your final sentence sounds faintly like the Yeesha blabberings, but their is an important difference. It has actual meaning. There is really a page he is asking for.

Yeesha's nonsense would be alright, if it had actual meaning. I thought Revelation had a brilliant plot, mostly because all of the events pieced themselves together at the end of the game.

In the beginning of Revelation when the vault gets blasted you have no idea what happened. But, eventually you do know exactly why and how it happened. In Uru you are subjected to a random series of events which has no real purpose or meaning. What happens when someone completes the journey? Nothing. More blabbering without purpose or meaning.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:45 pm 
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There is no ignorance like willful ignorance. It is a condition with no cure.

- - - - - - -

"You have seen Yeesha. She was, I'm sure, not very hospitable...You are confused, no doubt...
She is the Desert Bird that longs to fly; she has dreams of taking flight in her ambiguous world, filled with vague clouds and shadowed air."

- Esher

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Last edited by hogarth on Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:07 pm 
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Shields, I think you miss the point of URU entirely. It's a prologue, an introduction, a preamble, the beginning of something large where seeds are sown, germs of an idea are presented. It does not have a beginning, a middle and an end, so the story is incomplete.

It's barely started. Stay with Live and you might see what URU was for and what Yeesha meant when she said about the reward shirt that wearing it would show what side you're on when sides are taken. Only when we've had the whole thing can you judge URU's story.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:09 pm 
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That point has been made again and again in this thread, but we are butting our heads against a brick wall.

There is none so blind as he that will not see.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Well we'll just keep butting our heads with determination!

It looks like most people agree (and have done so mostly without being too insulting or rude) that URU was not meant to be a standalone story the way the Myst chronicles were. Each Myst version delved a bit deeper into the mystery and each held it's own as a "sequal" with a prologue, a story, villains, heroes, and an epilogue.

Uru clearly does not fall into the same category as the Myst epics at all, other than it's the same race of people and those who studied/followed their ways.

Uru is a -modern- companion to the Myst worlds that allows us, the common guys, to be included into the evolving storyline and plot. It's not meant to stand alone or be "solved" in a few play sessions.

Solving the puzzles and ages in Uru is like a TUTORIAL, I said this before. Pointing out it's flat and unfinished is like saying kindergarten just didn't give you enough education to get into college...

Lets give it a rest. The original poster came across sounding negative (he could have worded it differently regardless of opinion) and had a lot less heated and emotional response from those who love Uru and are looking forward to seeing it grow in depth and plot in Live.

He's not without points that could be used as true suggestions, it was just the delivery that went flat.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:34 pm 
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First I'll take care of the insults:

Quote:
There is no ignorance like willful ignorance. It is a condition with no cure.


Quote:
There is none so blind as he that will not see.


Translated: You are not only stupid, but intentionally so.

Once again you prove yourselves immature with cheap shots. Good job.


Quote:
Shields, I think you miss the point of URU entirely. It's a prologue, an introduction, a preamble, the beginning of something large where seeds are sown, germs of an idea are presented. It does not have a beginning, a middle and an end, so the story is incomplete.


The current Uru story is very weak, and can really only be continued with more empty story (see Green Eggs and Ham for example), and is built upon an engine barely capable of having five people in the same area without the game lagging beyond belief, not to mention that the graphics are terrible. There are currently sixty-four player action games with almost no lag whatsoever. Not only is the story so far bad, but the engine is bad too.

Quote:
But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.
(Luke 6:49)


Now I really would like this thing to survive, but I am not sure if the Plasma engine itself is good enough. It might be, but when you have less than fifteen people working on a project you just cannot afford to let half of them work on the engine. It just is not economically possible.

Quote:
Solving the puzzles and ages in Uru is like a TUTORIAL, I said this before. Pointing out it's flat and unfinished is like saying kindergarten just didn't give you enough education to get into college...


The main defense I see to the Uru storyline is that it "hadn't really started" yet. While it may be true that Live got cancelled, why did we even get Uru Prime? Why did we pay $40 for a tutorial? I do not buy tutorials. Uru Prime was packaged as a complete game. If you do not agree with that I suggest you go read the original box. It looks like a full game that continues online, and yet you say it is a tutorial. Which is it?


Final Word: People keep claiming I made the initial post without any ground for my statements, yet look how many replies this thread has. If I had made "The Offical Uru Sucks" thread, I would have recieved hardly any. The popularity of this thread is a testament to the fact that the point in my intitial post drove home even though I did not give any examples.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Quote:
I think you forgot to mention "philosophical blabbering" in your hint as well which is a big reason why I didn't like not only Yeesha but the story also. See green eggs & ham for further details.


Thank you. Have edited.

BTW: Who is Marantos? I'm fairly sure I'm three letters different than that: Maratanos

EDIT:
Quote:
Yeesha's nonsense would be alright, if it had actual meaning.


The whole point is that Yeesha really is like that. She would be fundamentally non-Yeesha if she were not a really wacko person. There are really wacko people in RL... Why can't that be accepted in Uru?

Shields: Just because UU has horrible lag doesn't mean UL2 will. Just becuase UABM had a horrible plot (in your opinion) doesn't mean UL2 will. Like someone said earlier, "You can't compare Riven to Uru," you really can't compare UABM or UU to UL2, because you simply don't know enough about UL2 for you to be able to say anything significant about its engine or its plot.

END EDIT


Last edited by Maratanos on Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:52 pm 
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Actually it came across as you did make the "Uru sux" post, you just worded it differently by stating you felt he storyline was flat and Yeesha was nothing but jibberish. If you don't think that comes across sounding negative, go back and re-read everyone's feedback to you. You got the long pages of responses because people A) Disagreed with you, B) Tried to correct some oversights or C) Asked for more clarification and true Suggestion.

I appreciate that you stuck with it however, though I still think you set the negative tone from day one. That's your opinion, fine.

Uru was boxed and sold for 40 bucks the way most online games are. You pay that same price for World of Warcraft, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot or whatever, and you don't even get the single player option in those games! I fail to see why you are complaining about that. Cyan gave you a portion of the game and some introduction storyline and plot to get you interested in playing Uru Live. Uru Live is urged on you as soon as you install it. I don't think your argument that it -should- have been an epic standalone story from day one is holding much water.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:56 pm 
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There were no insults in my posts, Shields. To be called ignorant is not the same thing as to be called stupid. Ignorance can be fixed - stupidity is a lifelong condition. Not the same thing at all.

Yes, you are being willfully ignorant - you are CHOOSING to ignore facts, and cherry-picking words to suit your purpose.

You state that "the current Uru story is very weak, can really only be continued with more empty story" (sic). You don't explain WHY or HOW it can "only be continued with more empty story". You don't know this, in fact CAN'T know this, and don't offer evidence to back up your assertion. You then go on in the same paragraph to switch logical gears entirely, talking about the game engine - as though that has anything to do with the story - and then criticize the graphics as "terrible", and complain about lag. Your arguments are all over the map, and prove nothing; you are merely stating again - as you did in the OP - that you just don't like the game.

Then there is the curious statement, backed up with no evidence, that "there are currently sixty-four action player games with almost no lag whatsoever". Even if true - which I doubt - what does this have to do with the storyline in Uru? (And what is an "action player game", anyway?)

I'm going to take the gloves off here. Shields, your statements go a ways beyond ignorance, willful or otherwise. You posts are sliding into stupidity.

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Last edited by hogarth on Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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