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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:57 am 
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Whilyam,

If you want to CNAME from a domain of your choice, I'll host and maintain a new instance of MediaWiki for you to play with, complete with FTP access if you wish it. The CNAME means it appears on a subdomain of your chosing so it appears to be on your (or someone's) own domain. Use it as long as you wish or until you find it a permanent home. When you wish to move it, I'll generate a complete database export for you.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:15 pm 
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While I'd like to, I have too many other projects. I just recognize a need.

EDIT: I would be interested when my other projects let up, though.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:31 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
We have one. See sig. ;)

No, that's the Open URU wiki, not one for the D'ni language.

Paradox wrote:
Perhaps talk to chucker and see if he would be willing to host this as part of MystLore?

JWPlatt wrote:
[…] If you want to CNAME from a domain of your choice, I'll host and maintain a new instance of MediaWiki for you to play with, complete with FTP access if you wish it. […]

JWP has created a resource for Myst-Uru fans. It is headed toward possibly being able to host shards when we have open source. Any Myst-Uru related project, most any, can be hosted there. Having a dictionary on the wiki would work. That JWP will hook up whatever domain name someone buy works even better.

Searchable… I find the D’ni Dictionary very searchable. Google Chrome’s Ctrl-F works great. The layout is horrible and the colors… but it is useful and I appreciate the effort that went into it. I do think we need something that the community can easily add to.

Also consider the footnotes on the Dictionary page.
Quote:
Legal Information:
This page is published with the permission of Cyan, Inc., and is intended for noncommercial and personal use only.
All Riven images and text
© Cyan, Inc. All rights reserved
Riven ® Cyan, Inc.
All D'ni characters and text
© Cyan, Inc. All rights reserved
D'ni ® Cyan, Inc.
Tables of D'ni letters and numbers © 2000 by Sebastian Ochs


Whoever starts the project will first need to run down permission. Several of these words are copyrighted as is the D’ni language.

A great reference of what eles is available: DLF D’ni Language Resources

Another dictionary: Dni Dictionary 1 8 04. This one does not list sources with each word. While not searchable via browser find, it has a search window at the bottom of the text.

Another: D'ni Language Grammar – This one looks like a good candidate for updating.

Of course there is no reason not to use the Wikipedia itself. See: Myst D’ni Language

There is an existing wiki for the D’ni: D’ni Wiki. We can add to it now. One could put up a language section easily.

Another Dictionaray: Myst V D’ni Dictionary

D’ni Alphabet
D’ni Language
D’ni Refence Info
D’ni Language Encyclopedia
Yahoo Tech Group D’ni Language

There is lots of existing stuff. May be another one is not such a good idea…

(I have no idea what is wrong with those to URL's...)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:58 am 
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I'm all for consolidation. Why we need three different D'ni dictionaries is beyond me. We need a single, simple dictionary that people can edit and add on to.

Also, using Ctrl-F is not searchable. That's like telling someone to cook their food with a match.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:16 am 
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Nalates wrote:
JWP has created a resource for Myst-Uru fans. [...] Any Myst-Uru related project, most any, can be hosted there. Having a dictionary on the wiki would work. That JWP will hook up whatever domain name someone buy works even better.

The same could be said of chucker, who maintains the MystLore wiki, a forum and KI number directory, and the IRC side of cyanchat.

And MystLore has a wiki'd D'ni dictionary (though it only maps D'ni words to English, and not the other way around).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
I'm all for consolidation. Why we need three different D'ni dictionaries is beyond me. We need a single, simple dictionary that people can edit and add on to.


I'm normally for a healthy amount of alternatives. For example, a decade ago, there was only one major discussion board, and I feel everyone is better off when there's a handful of choices (assuming each of them provides something unique); now, there's almost too many. In my opinion, the problem with having three different D'ni dictionaries isn't that it's too many; it's that none of them are particularly comprehensive in their breadth and thorough in their citations. Having said that, as quahog42 pointed out, MYSTlore already is user-editable, and already provides a section for D'ni words (though current D'ni-English only, not English-D'ni — is there demand for that?).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:01 pm 
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chucker wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
I'm all for consolidation. Why we need three different D'ni dictionaries is beyond me. We need a single, simple dictionary that people can edit and add on to.


I'm normally for a healthy amount of alternatives. For example, a decade ago, there was only one major discussion board, and I feel everyone is better off when there's a handful of choices (assuming each of them provides something unique); now, there's almost too many. In my opinion, the problem with having three different D'ni dictionaries isn't that it's too many; it's that none of them are particularly comprehensive in their breadth and thorough in their citations. Having said that, as quahog42 pointed out, MYSTlore already is user-editable, and already provides a section for D'ni words (though current D'ni-English only, not English-D'ni — is there demand for that?).

See, what I'd rather see is the hosts of the three current ones "join forces" and share the costs of providing a single dictionary. Alternatives are necessary when there could be differences of opinion on something (like running a shard, for example). I don't see any potential for that, personally.
The issue with MYSTlore's for me is that it's tied into MYSTlore and thus if you search for something, it will bring up pages on other topics and not the word you're looking for.
For example, if I search for "office" I of course get results on the location the Baron's City Office, the Tokotah (offices of the DRC), etc. A search for "oolbah" (office) points me to the Age 233 text source, but there's no mention of the D'ni word article.
And thirdly, as you said there's no English to D'ni translation. This is in very high demand with people looking to create a D'ni name for their Age (i.e. Tor'oolbah = torinai [cold] + oolbah [office]).

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
The issue with MYSTlore's for me is that it's tied into MYSTlore and thus if you search for something, it will bring up pages on other topics and not the word you're looking for.


Not entirely true. The search only applies to the main namespace, so you actually get no dictionary results at all. Guess we should set up another search field for the dictionary.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:38 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
Also, using Ctrl-F is not searchable. That's like telling someone to cook their food with a match.

When everything is on one page, why would Ctrl-F not be considered searchable?

I did not realize Chucker was offering to support various Myst related projects.

chucker wrote:
I'm normally for a healthy amount of alternatives. For example, a decade ago, there was only one major discussion board, and I feel everyone is better off when there's a handful of choices (assuming each of them provides something unique); now, there's almost too many. In my opinion, the problem with having three different D'ni dictionaries isn't that it's too many; it's that none of them are particularly comprehensive in their breadth and thorough in their citations. Having said that, as quahog42 pointed out, MYSTlore already is user-editable, and already provides a section for D'ni words (though current D'ni-English only, not English-D'ni — is there demand for that?).

I agree that none are ‘particularly’ comprehensive. I think since Mystlore has an editable wiki that makes it a good candidate for future effort.

Whilyam wrote:
The issue with MYSTlore's for me is that it's tied into MYSTlore and thus if you search for something, it will bring up pages on other topics and not the word you're looking for.

The wiki has name spaces and search can be limited to a name space in advanced search. It would likely be easier to create/add a name space than another dictionary.

I see the Dictionary name space exists. However, I’m either blowing the search or dictionary entries have not been cross referenced or categorized.

I do go from English to D’ni more than I do from a transcription of Dni to English. I usually have to transliterate the D'ni characters then find the transcribed D'ni word... to get English... tedious. English to D'ni is much easier. This suggests to me that possibly two name spaces may make search easier. A Dictionary D->E and Dictionary E->D ...



Finding ‘office’ in D’ni Dictionary using Ctrl-F was much faster than figuring out how to get to advanced search and restrict the search on the wiki. Simple is nice. Found it on 6th click, about 15 seconds… :p

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:45 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
Also, using Ctrl-F is not searchable. That's like telling someone to cook their food with a match.

When everything is on one page, why would Ctrl-F not be considered searchable?

For example, the D'ni Dictionary lists the source text(s) right under the entries. This means that the word I'm looking for might appear on other locations on the page and I have to sift through those to find the actual entry for the word (try 'shorah' - it's probably the case with most words).

It's searchable, but not in a very practical way. Search engines tend to show the entries with the most relevance first, for example those with title matches.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:57 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Finding ‘office’ in D’ni Dictionary using Ctrl-F was much faster than figuring out how to get to advanced search and restrict the search on the wiki. Simple is nice. Found it on 6th click, about 15 seconds… :p

Now see how long it takes to find what "a" is in D'ni or "the" or . . .

Why are we even having this sort of discussion? Using Ctrl F is an antique way to search a web site. Things should be clean and easy to use, a search box where you type in a D'ni or English word and it finds that word and nothing else (search for "and" and you get "reh" search for "reh" and you get "and").
I don't tell you to just fly around every island in Second Life to find one, do I? No, there's a search box that does the work for you!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:15 am 
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Yeah ctrl+f on the D'ni dictionary is a pain, never brings up what I need and I end up having to scroll down half the entries anyway.

I'd like a search function dictionary, Mystlore would be a good place for it seeming they have one partially set up already.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:36 am 
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Now see how long it takes to find what "a" is in D'ni or "the" or . . .

Not really fair going either way. Ctrl-F can find the D'ni equivalent letter (2nd table) and it took about 3 seconds because of the way the Dictionary pages is laid out. Looking for the definition of an article and knowing most search engines will overload on single letter searches I looked for a, an, the. As you type Google Chrome provides feed back. When I typed the second comma it clunked. I and got lucky. Only one occurrence. Total time 10 seconds...

But what search engine is do you use for that type of search that works on a wiki or the D'ni Dictionary?

Even Google will refuse to search for 'the'. But, on the dictionary it took about 30 seconds to realize 'the' is the prefix reh. I had to search for (space)the(space)book and then (space)the(space)ink.

Most searches need the data setup for them. Even with Google one has has to consider what they went through to get the typical 'definition (some word)' search working. I don't know any wiki that has that smart a search.

If a wiki is set up to define all words as 'Definition: (some word)' or 'Translation: (some word)' then it is easy to pick what you want out of the clutter... even with Cntrl-F.

Only when one goes to advanced boolean searches or needing to search across multiple pages do I see Ctrl-F failing.

The reason I continued to discuss it is I think you are over looking a simple solution. If you want to write a search routine go for it. I personally think most canned SQL searches suck. The source for search tools like the Tech Data site's Search Tool is on Google in there search API help section. I made those because forum and wiki searches are so bad.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:41 pm 
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I'll play with MediaWiki and see if I can get an English-to-D'ni dictionary set up. I was actually working on my own, PHP-based dictionary which was supposed to be community-driven, but MediaWiki seems pretty good too.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:33 pm 
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I suspect quite a few of us use Mediawiki in various places. I know the wiki at OpenUru.org uses it. Hopefully you will have more people willing to help by using Mediawiki. I'm behind in several of my hobby projects... :( ...I did get my SIM running on OSGrid! :D

I'm not good with name spaces, categories, and such. I'm still trying to learn to make good use of them at OpenUru.org. I believe they are the key to getting the wiki search to work better.

For those using simplistic search and boolean search on Google the format is likely the most important. Being able to search on Translate: (some word) or some uniform text would be a big boost for all the systems. For those starting cold from Google making landing page, usually an index linking to words, is a big aid in search position. Then getting everyone to link to the page with good links, like English to D'ni Language, help even more. Try Googling 'Uru Search'.

I don't know how to add a Google search tool to a wiki, but the code for the search tools I used is in the Uru Search Page. The manual on them is in the Webmasters' Tools at Google.

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