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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:55 pm 
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It's like Tolkien. You just want to have grass, and need 3-5 Pages to describe it :D :D :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:56 pm 
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Ian Atrus wrote:
sarabonny wrote:
1. I am wondering why everyone assumes that Linking Books and Age Books only work if written in D'ni


Obviously the Bahro show that it doesn't have to be D'ni.The fact is that the gahro-hevtee are, according to the books, words that just don't exist in our human languages; Ti'ana couldn't give Atrus a proper translation for one of them other than "it has something to do with the circulation of air".

It might be possible to Write in english, but it'd probably be harder, not easier, just like when you have to use two or three phrases to translate something that in another language is just a short expression or even a single word.


I would say probably it's not what the word is, but what the word means. I don't imagine that the ink or the paper can determine what word is being written (look at the problems our modern tech has deciphering handwriting :roll: ), and so cannot determine the meaning - and in addition, there is the added complexities of word combination and word paraphrasing and context.

My belief is that the words, ink and paper are merely the means by which the intentions and meanings of the author are preserved and actuated - the materials and movements of the pen are a kind of focus of the IDEAS of the author. Perhaps I'm not explaining too well.

Perhaps is you envisage the ink on the papaer as a sort of 'magnetic to thoughts' material, in writing your Age book, it's kind of like doing a tape recordg of a song (or better, a computer program of sorts, that the book 'runs' to bring the Age into existence).

What I'm getting at, if what I believe above is how things happen, then the language is irrelevant - you could even write an Age by drawing pictures from your imagination on how the Age would hang together and work (bit like a storyboard).

Did anyone understand that at all? :D

Ooo, Ooo, quick addition: if the writer's thoughts are getting 'recording' when writing the Age, that would explain the requirement for discipline in writing Ages, and perhaps why Gehn's Ages failed :P

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:49 pm 
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sarabonny wrote:
the materials and movements of the pen are a kind of focus of the IDEAS of the author.


Quoting from BoA, the Great words are *above* ideas, just like labels (red, tree) are above concepts (love, intelligence); the D'ni understood this 'higher level', a synthesis of ideas and labels, and put these concepts into words. To be able to do that in English, or any other surface language, we should first have to 'grok' this higher level of words.

Also, personally, I like the idea of the Gahro-hevtee as a sort of programming language, as it shows well the difference between someone with the Skill (one who can patch up a program to do a task without caring much for its elegance, or how many resources it takes) and a master of the Art (someone for who code really is poetry). If it's just mind reading on the part of the Book (and how's that easier than hand writing recognition, anyway?) then anyone with a fervid imagination should be a good Writer.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:49 pm 
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Ian Atrus wrote:
sarabonny wrote:
the materials and movements of the pen are a kind of focus of the IDEAS of the author.


Quoting from BoA, the Great words are *above* ideas, just like labels (red, tree) are above concepts (love, intelligence); the D'ni understood this 'higher level', a synthesis of ideas and labels, and put these concepts into words. To be able to do that in English, or any other surface language, we should first have to 'grok' this higher level of words.

Also, personally, I like the idea of the Gahro-hevtee as a sort of programming language, as it shows well the difference between someone with the Skill (one who can patch up a program to do a task without caring much for its elegance, or how many resources it takes) and a master of the Art (someone for who code really is poetry). If it's just mind reading on the part of the Book (and how's that easier than hand writing recognition, anyway?) then anyone with a fervid imagination should be a good Writer.


But what do you think of the idea that the special pens,inks and papaer are mere the 'recording and then actuating' mechanism for the thoughts of the writer?

I'm not convinced that the mere word is sufficeient - by that I mean its not a magical chant where the words are the bounding entities rather than the intentions behind them - or is it the suggestion that the words limit the intentions?

In a computer program, the syntax does have a major influence on the outcome of the ptogram, I agree. But assuming you use the correct syntax, then it is how these 'statements' (series of words, or sentences) hang together that deermine the result.

Talking Ookishly, the same computer application (even unto the GUI) can be produced using different languages.

I see to correlations: one, between a program written and an Age book written, the other between a language and the Age creation tools (a cross between OOC and IC)

Opinion: if we were to get Age Creation tools, I would prefer it to be the kind that would need an Age to be written (ie. script written), rather than drag and drop - it would mean that people would actually need to work at it (in the same way as the D'ni and probably through a Guikd as I mention in prev posting - much more Ickish. The scripting language would not need to be too difficult but the Guild aspect should still be a major factor)

What think people?

Also pls excuse spelling -my creative thoughs have beeen sparked by a 5 pint visit to me local - a heavy beer called Old Peculier (5.6%)played a major role :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:39 pm 
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Age Creation will always be out of game, involving a 3D Modelling program such as Blender or 3DS Max.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:56 pm 
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Making Age creation *deliberately* harder, for in-character reasons, is silly. It's going to be hard enough as it is. The only goal is to reduce the difficulty as much as possible.

However, one can imagine an Age which allows a lot of in-game customization -- perhaps with a book-like interface. Think Relto on steroids: instead of switching green pages on and off, you might be able to drag glyphs around on a page, or adjust colors with slider marks (again, on a page.)

(This would not, obviously, *replace* the Age creation tools. It would be the outcome of a lot of work *with* the Age creation tools, putting dynamic models into an Age. I don't think you'd call it IC-Age-Writing -- it wouldn't have that feel -- but it would be fun for the general player population to mess around with.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:23 pm 
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belford wrote:
Making Age creation *deliberately* harder, for in-character reasons, is silly. It's going to be hard enough as it is. The only goal is to reduce the difficulty as much as possible.

However, one can imagine an Age which allows a lot of in-game customization -- perhaps with a book-like interface. Think Relto on steroids: instead of switching green pages on and off, you might be able to drag glyphs around on a page, or adjust colors with slider marks (again, on a page.)

(This would not, obviously, *replace* the Age creation tools. It would be the outcome of a lot of work *with* the Age creation tools, putting dynamic models into an Age. I don't think you'd call it IC-Age-Writing -- it wouldn't have that feel -- but it would be fun for the general player population to mess around with.)


I'm sorry, I thought the idea WAS to make things IC - otherwise it becomes a bit like trolling through files to find out what happens next. Thi is supposed to be an IC experience, grrr, grrr! :shock:

OK then we can make it so yer true ICers (hey good word :D - Ikers, Ickies) can do it the 'harder IC way' via a D'ni Guild setup, or you could have a drag and drop interface to generate said script for those less Ick (yuck!) capable

Again, just IMHO - hmmmm? :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:35 pm 
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There is no "IC" way to create the actual Age.

You can have IC storyline about how you created the Age, or where you found the Age; but actually building the geometry and textures etc. must happen outside of the game.

You say that you don't want Cyan to waste resources, yet the IC Age Building that you are suggesting would require Cyan to spend (possibly) months adding new support to the Plasma engine and preventing them from solving existing issues such as lag and vault code.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:45 pm 
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I haven't got the talent, myself, to do the digital legwork for age building, but I'm excited about the prospect of working with someone to bring the age pictures in my head into 3d life. It'd be a bonus if I could share those with others in Live.

I'm really looking forward to whatever solution Cyan comes up with to allow quality Ages to be accessed from Uru. I've got confidence that whatever happens, it'll be good for Cyan, and the creative people who are behind the existing Age Building efforts.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:44 pm 
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sarabonny wrote:
But what do you think of the idea that the special pens,inks and papaer are mere the 'recording and then actuating' mechanism for the thoughts of the writer?


I don't like the idea that a material can read my thoughts and record them. If that was the case, why even bother writing? Just make some Rorschach-like blotches and think about the Age you want.

There is necessarily an interpreter involved in the Books (Yahvo? the Bahro? some property of the ink that makes it so that every gahro-hevtee works like a printed circuit?), but I don't see the need for mind reading.

And the pen is a normal pen. ;)

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the same computer application (even unto the GUI) can be produced using different languages.


To use a flawed analogy, IMHO trying to Write Ages in English is like trying to write an interactive fiction in assembly rather than, say, Inform; you can do it, but you have to reinvent the wheel all the time, while the other language is higher-level and specifically oriented towards your goal.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:51 pm 
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This thread brings up an interesting point.

If English has no words on par with the Garohevtee, why don't we just invent them. Draw a squiggle and say, this symbol is equal to this Garohevtee, how would that work? Would it work?

It has been long said that words have power because people group behind words, this is illustrated by things like racism, but if enough people grouped behind this squiggle saying that it is equal to this Garohevtee, I wonder if that would have any effect.

Just musing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:56 pm 
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There is necessarily an interpreter involved in the Books
Yes to that. Something somewhere has to recognise the words, know what they mean as objects and translate one to the other.


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:47 pm 
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The problem is here, that people are failing to meet a middle ground between what is the ideal, e.g. a sentence based language where you can write ages and one sentence would describe each bit,

e.g. The Age is called Test1, The theme is grassland. There are 15 grid squares in this age, the grid is aligned A-C, 1-5. Gridsquare A1 is the corner of the age. Gridsquare A1 has a rocky theme.


And the polar opposite, a 3DS max plugin where you can create your own PRP files from the plugin and using your own code (I don't have enough insight into this method so i wont try and go into actually how it works.)


What is normally meant by user created tools is what Bethesda softworks have created for Morrowind and Oblivion. A bank of premade sets of terrain pieces and objects to put in this terrain. Look at some tutorials on the Elder scrolls 4 editor to see what I mean. This is probably what we are looking at getting.

I appreciate all the strides that you have made Paradox however I think everyone in this topic is being slightly black and white on the topic at hand. It is not as simple as either Cyan releasing their in-house tools or not bringing out anything at all.


To post script this message I would like to point out the bold text is possibly the only IC way you could make this work however without a large bank of themes and sentence structures to choose from lots of ages would be terribly similar with almost identical puzzles. However this COULD work however it would mean some serious dedication from someone at cyan. I have a lot of ideas on how this would work and that example was a very basic instance of what could be done, so don't brush it aside lightly.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:53 am 
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We've got an Age Creation FAQ and facts going on here.

We hope that this will answer questions and help to explain the direction that fan Ages will be headed. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:43 am 
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Paradox wrote:
There is no "IC" way to create the actual Age.

You can have IC storyline about how you created the Age, or where you found the Age; but actually building the geometry and textures etc. must happen outside of the game.

You say that you don't want Cyan to waste resources, yet the IC Age Building that you are suggesting would require Cyan to spend (possibly) months adding new support to the Plasma engine and preventing them from solving existing issues such as lag and vault code.


I 100% agree with that.

However you could include a world bilder in the style of uru, so that it felt in game, possibly with some storyline qabout the age being sent for translation.


just an idea.

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