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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:28 am 
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Yep, I meant that debate a few pages back. Prompted by OHB’s comment, I reread this thread and poked a little fun at some of the wildest theories :) I guess I should elaborate a bit (brace yourselves: another wall of text is coming).

About the Art: the gahrohevtee used in the Skill are, if I remember correctly, very abstract concepts: the New Mexico area wouldn’t be written as “a desert with a system of caverns”, but e.g. “a desert-iness with a plural quality of caverns-iness” (I know, I know, oversimplification). Also, the description of an Age doesn’t necessarily describe the whole planet: for all we know, the kormahn for Earth might be limited to the Cavern and a small sphere around it; the rest (by design choice or by necessity) would then be, in varying degrees, a consequence of the Tree of Possibility. So the geological history of an Age would indeed be ‘caused’ by the Art but only in a lateral sense, as a potential that already manifested itself once the Age is visited. So, my understanding is that the degree of acceptable editing (which I do think is possible) should be intended along these tracks.
Ri’neref couldn’t simply add a waterflow, he would have need to change the ‘water-flow-ness’ quality of the Cavern – a mistake that a Master Writer would be unlikely to make. The ship in Stoneship was, I think, a result of the potential of a derelict ship to hit those rocks (perhaps Atrus unknowingly caused a slight shift ahead in time). Also, the role of the Observer in quantum physics should be kept in mind: once a phenomena is observed, its status is fixed. So it would be impossible to link to an alternate Riven where Gehn was ‘innocent’, the degree of change would be so ample that the link would break before that. But a Riven where Katran is kept somewhere else, that would be more likely.

About the influence over other civilizations:
I find unlikely that D’ni influence was so wide as to include mayans, egyptians, and hindus. While I agree that Ri’neref’s ultimate intention could’ve been for them to mix with us, it seems to me that the D’ni became self-centered quite soon in their history, so I’d expect their influence to be limited to the New Mexico area or a little more. Besides, if they had so ample access to the rest of our world, why would they choose to keep their capital in the Cavern, with all the troubles that entails?

About longevity and genetics: longevity, as far as I know, is a complex trait, not regulated by just a single gene. But if, for sake of simplification, we assume D’ni longevity is related to a single, recessive allele (and if I remember Mendel’s laws correctly!) this might fit with Gehn’s line: if he was heterozygote, his longevity would’ve been human; and if Leira really was partly D’ni, Atrus could’ve inherited both recessive alleles and displayed a more D’ni-like longevity.
As for Esher age, I have a wild theory. It has been said that the actual location of an Age is unknown. In space, but also in time. What if Noloben have some kind of accelerated time flow? Not so big as to be noticeable on a short visit, but effective on the long run. Todelmer might be an even better candidate.
Alternatively, the age of Yeesha, Atrus, Esher and perhaps Gehn have been erroneously reported (deliberately or not). Or End of Ages and Riven were played by ‘actors’ of the wrong age.

About Gehn: I have a different take on his character. I doubt he actually thought of himself as a divinity, he merely used that belief to keep the Rivenese in check. And after all he went through, after his world turned on him twice, he decided to set things ‘right’ (his concept of right), and chose to do so mercilessly, by any means necessary. Yes, his actions were inexcusable, but he wasn’t (entirely) selfish: after all, in his last days on Riven he was still trying to bring the Rivenese to a safer place (if only to keep the labor force).
And, for sad irony, I like to think that his 234th Age, the Sanctuary, was actually his first stable, well written Age.

A few more random notes:
Perhaps Riven’s fissure did happen by chance; years later, Yeesha recognized its Bahro nature and learned how to replicate it.
I’m not that convinced that Esher needs Nekisahloth to be alive. What if the Bahro skin has some peculiar properties he couldn’t replicate?
According to Robyn Miller, there never was a Stranger, in contrast to Rawa’s statements. Perhaps the Stranger is a narrative mix of different people who helped Atrus during his life. And how convenient that s/he had a color camera with him/her in the early XIX century ;)
I’m under the assumption that ‘Yeesha/Bahro magic’ is defined as in Clarke’s Law: ‘just’ a more advanced Art; only they can use it because D’ni Art is hard enough (a math parallel: D’ni Art is basic calculus, Bahro Art is advanced tensor calculus).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:00 pm 
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korovev wrote:
According to Robyn Miller, there never was a Stranger, in contrast to Rawa’s statements. Perhaps the Stranger is a narrative mix of different people who helped Atrus during his life. And how convenient that s/he had a color camera with him/her in the early XIX century ;)


Robyn also said D'ni wasn't on Earth, so I'm not sure how relevant that is to later canon. ;) I assume Atrus made the camera, but the idea that the Stranger is Amad is an interesting one. Maybe Myst is more of a family story than we thought...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Oh, it gets even wilder than that!!

Folks who attended my Mysterium presentation (in person or remotely) were treated to a fast trip down the rabbit hole in my head! :mrgreen:

[Reveal] Spoiler: journal ponderings for further entries here
What if... There are Rivenese descendants alive today in New Mexico?
What if... Katran searched them out just as Atrus did for the remaining D'ni?
What if... The Stranger knew these Rivenese personally through his friendship with Atrus?
What if... The Millers are part Rivenese?
What if... Dr. Watson looks striking similar to one of his ancestors? (hence Atrus referring to him as "my old friend") or
What if... Dr. Watson *is* The Stranger (surely, Bahro magic)?
What if... there is a complex set of interrelationships at work here dating back to the times of Myst/Riven?


[[Edit: dang typos]]

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Last edited by Ainia on Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:51 pm 
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[Reveal] Spoiler:
What if... one of Dr. Watson's ancestors was the Stranger, and the family stayed in contact across multiple human generations?
How long is a Rivenese lifespan anyway?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Ainia wrote:
Oh, it gets even wilder than that!!

Folks who attended my Mysterium presentation (in person or remotely) were treated to a fast trip down the rabbit hole in my head! :mrgreen:

[Reveal] Spoiler: journal ponderings for further entries here
What if... There are Rivenese descendants alive today in Mew Mexico?
What if... Katran searched them out just as Atrus did for the remaining D'ni?
What if... The Stranger knew these Rivenese personally through his friendship with Atrus?
What if... The Millers are part Rivenese?
What if... Dr. Watson looks striking similar to one of his ancestors? (hence Atrus referring to him as "my old friend") or
What if... Dr. Watson *is* The Stranger (surely, Bahro magic)?
What if... there is a complex set of interrelationships at work here dating back to the times of Myst/Riven?


Heh, that all you got?

[Reveal] Spoiler: Prepare to go down a very deep rabbit hole.
What if Garternay was Atlantis and it was the missing D'ni that stayed on the surface that warned and prepared early man for the Great Flood described in the nearly 400 flood myths throughout the known world?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:29 pm 
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Ainia:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
I think there are certainly Rivenese descended folks around New Mexico, since the Rivenese that Gehn threw into the Star Fissure to try and map it would have landed by the cleft: the Star Fissure on Riven always leads there.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:08 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
Ainia wrote:
Oh, it gets even wilder than that!!

Folks who attended my Mysterium presentation (in person or remotely) were treated to a fast trip down the rabbit hole in my head! :mrgreen:

[Reveal] Spoiler: journal ponderings for further entries here
What if... There are Rivenese descendants alive today in New Mexico?
What if... Katran searched them out just as Atrus did for the remaining D'ni?
What if... The Stranger knew these Rivenese personally through his friendship with Atrus?
What if... The Millers are part Rivenese?
What if... Dr. Watson looks striking similar to one of his ancestors? (hence Atrus referring to him as "my old friend") or
What if... Dr. Watson *is* The Stranger (surely, Bahro magic)?
What if... there is a complex set of interrelationships at work here dating back to the times of Myst/Riven?


Heh, that all you got?

[Reveal] Spoiler: Prepare to go down a very deep rabbit hole.
What if Garternay was Atlantis and it was the missing D'ni that stayed on the surface that warned and prepared early man for the Great Flood described in the nearly 400 flood myths throughout the known world?

[Reveal] Spoiler: To which I say :D
And here I'd thought that Atlantis was either sunk by the Great Flood or was the source of a natural disaster that caused the Great Flood (or both)... :)

But I could go with the idea that Atlantis was the original D'ni surface settlement, secretly sent forth from the cavern by Ri'neref back in the beginning. And after the Great Flood destroyed Atlantis proper, only their outpost colonies remained, which by necessity had to develop independently for a while, but eventually spread across the several continents and absorbed the indigenous human populations... :P

The notion of Atlantis *being* Garternay is a little harder to integrate simply because lore says that Garternay was about to be destroyed by a nova... plus it seems Quabs were indigenous there (but could have gone extinct here on Terra in the meanwhile... hmmm...).


AlanD wrote:
Ainia:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
I think there are certainly Rivenese descended folks around New Mexico, since the Rivenese that Gehn threw into the Star Fissure to try and map it would have landed by the cleft: the Star Fissure on Riven always leads there.

[Reveal] Spoiler: Exactly!
And I have a theory about that (naturally :P). I think the Rivenese were adopted by the Apache, a group of nomadic Athabascan tribes who wandered nearly all of New Mexico back in those days. Isn't it interesting that the Millers grew up in a nomadic family? ;)


OHB, look at what you started!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:18 pm 
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Ainia wrote:
OHB, look at what you started!!! :lol:

Fear not, my minions are a crazy but gentle people. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Korovev wrote: a very comprehensive description of the Art and some of the consequences.

I apologise, korovev. (hides face in shame) I should have known that you were being light-hearted with your post. You too are a far better D'ni scholar than I am, and you have a better grasp of the language than I gave you credit for as well. I wonder if there is a long narrow hole in the ground I can throw myself into....


Ah yes, here's one


My G*d, it's full of stars :o

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:54 pm 
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Don’t worry, the craziest theories might actually turn out to be canon :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Ah. I had to use TinEye to find out who that was (I'm very poorly informed about many American TV series)

I still don't know what that thing he has over his shoulder is - not a bomb, it might be some kind of large mortar round, or more likely a torpedo of some kind. I'm sure someone will enlighten me eventually...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:13 pm 
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Looks like a missile of sorts. Like the kind you would load into the gun in the rotating tower to sink the Stoneship ship.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:33 pm 
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To throw another wild guess at the Wall, I’ve put together a list of D’ni and Gregorian dates in steps of 25 (10) years since the Fall (YAF). Note how the Calling happened 250 ()0) years after that date, and how the next date is about five years from now.
What if a group of maintainers (independent or not of Atrus’ group) was given the task of periodically visiting the Cavern, and/or do a major inspection every 125 (50) years? If they started in 1769, the next inspection would be in 2019. Surprise :shock: :lol:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Code:
 CE            D’NI                YAF           NOTES
1744       9400 [15|01|0]        0      [0]    The Fall.

1769       9425 [15|02|0]       25    [1|0]    Atrus’ battery experiment.
1794       9450 [15|03|0]       50    [2|0]
1819       9475 [15|04|0]       75    [3|0]    5 years before the events of Revelation.
1844       9500 [15|05|0]      100    [4|0]
1869       9525 [15|06|0]      125    [5|0]

1894       9550 [15|07|0]      150    [6|0]
1919       9575 [15|08|0]      175    [7|0]
1944       9600 [15|09|0]      200    [8|0]
1969       9625 [15|10|0]      225    [9|0]
1994       9650 [15|11|0]      250   [10|0]    Ice cream trip; the Calling.

2019       9675 [15|12|0]      275   [11|0]
2044       9700 [15|13|0]      300   [12|0]
2069       9725 [15|14|0]      325   [13|0]    Average D’ni lifespan*.
2094       9750 [15|15|0]      350   [14|0]
2119       9775 [15|16|0]      375   [15|0]

2144       9800 [15|17|0]      400   [16|0]
2169       9825 [15|18|0]      425   [17|0]
2194       9850 [15|19|0]      450   [18|0]
2219       9875 [15|20|0]      475   [19|0]
2244       9900 [15|21|0]      500   [20|0]

2269       9925 [15|22|0]      525   [21|0]
2294       9950 [15|23|0]      550   [22|0]
2319       9975 [15|24|0]      575   [23|0]
2344      10000 [16|00|0]      600   [24|0]
2369      10025 [16|01|0]      625 [1|00|0]

* Quick Question - D'ni Lifespan

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