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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:16 am 
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Apparently the plural for glasses etc. is not universal. In German eine Brille is 'a pair of spectacles', and Schutzbrille is 'goggles' or protective glasses. At least according to my German-English dictionary, as I don't actually know very much German.

So perhaps yeepay is a similar exception to the tendency.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:31 am 
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Khreestrefah wrote:
Apparently the plural for glasses etc. is not universal. In German eine Brille is 'a pair of spectacles', and Schutzbrille is 'goggles' or protective glasses. At least according to my German-English dictionary, as I don't actually know very much German.

That is correct. The German word for pants/trousers (Hose) and the various terms for "buttocks" are singular as well. I can't think of any German words-that-always-come-in-two right now, but that doesn't mean there are none.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:58 pm 
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It is just a tendency, after all, since there's a choice between focussing on the singular nature of the item, or the duality in its form.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:37 am 
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The other enigmatic word in the pekay sentence is tetemo. This may be derived from the word temo which is used in the previous sentence:

koneetsahvayeet tænuhth iglahrno temo kokeelaheet kæt erth gahrtahvotee khah treahchah
they suffered temporary [blind]ness temo they [spent (?)] only a few 6-hour-periods in the ahchah.

A conjunction that would fit this context is “since” which would presumably indicate an accompanying circumstance (as distinct from an instigating reason, which would be expressed by gopah ‘because’). It might also include a meaning like “after” if the following clause implies the completion of a action.

What the additional te in tetemo means is harder to say, but if we plug in ‘since’ for temo the combination is suggestive:

.reyeepay kolæneet me gormot tetemo kojahgahen areeuhtahv fooruh
loymaht reloopahtee mot komahrenteet khahpo kokeneet pekay b’rish be motee

The [eye-gear] they [wore] from then te-[since] [provid]ed sufficient protection
though the loopah-s that followed perhaps were very pekay to those.

What the context suggests is that the workers started wearing the yeepay after the prior injuries and have been doing so in the mean time since then. English idioms for this include “in the mean time” or “meanwhile” and “since then” or “ever since.” The D’ni idiom is literally something like: ‘from that time with (the time) since’.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:18 am 
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Khreestrefah wrote:
The other enigmatic word in the pekay sentence is tetemo. This may be derived from the word temo which is used in the previous sentence:

koneetsahvayeet tænuhth iglahrno temo kokeelaheet kæt erth gahrtahvotee khah treahchah
they suffered temporary [blind]ness temo they [spent (?)] only a few 6-hour-periods in the ahchah.


This is tilting the possible definition of acha toward either sun or light, which are two of the proposed definitions in your dictionary.

Perhaps "after" might be a possible fit for temo? Then tetemo might be an extrapolation like "afterward" or "since".

Quote:
A conjunction that would fit this context is “since” which would presumably indicate an accompanying circumstance (as distinct from an instigating reason, which would be expressed by gopah ‘because’). It might also include a meaning like “after” if the following clause implies the completion of a action.

What the additional te in tetemo means is harder to say, but if we plug in ‘since’ for temo the combination is suggestive:

.reyeepay kolæneet me gormot tetemo kojahgahen areeuhtahv fooruh
loymaht reloopahtee mot komahrenteet khahpo kokeneet pekay b’rish be motee

The [eye-gear] they [wore] from then te-[since] [provid]ed sufficient protection
though the loopah-s that followed perhaps were very pekay to those.


Yēpā may be the word for goggles, if the whole concept of them needing eye protection is anywhere close to being correct. So, does this make sense?

The [goggles] they [wore] from that time [afterward] [provided] sufficient protection.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:31 am 
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The meaning "since" is probably more basic than "after" for the conjunction temo. In theory the circumstances in the second clause could be happening in a time-period that overlapped with what happens in the first clause, as long as the second clause serves to explain the first.

I would translate the adverbial phrase me gormot tetemo as "ever since that time" or something like that.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:49 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
This is tilting the possible definition of acha toward either sun or light, which are two of the proposed definitions in your dictionary.

It can't really rule out the air either. If the air itself is acidic, the eyes would be the first thing to be damaged (cf. the effects of chlorine in WW1)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:58 pm 
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Another thing about the phrase reloopahtee mot komahrenteet that we have not considered:

mot komahrenteet could mean 'that followed' or it could also mean 'that they followed'.

Perhaps loopah means something like "precaution" in the sense of 'preventive measure'.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:14 pm 
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Sounds reasonable to me. When I proposed my tentative meanings, I was mostly trying to point out that lūpa and pekā didn't have to mean something negative like problem or accident, which were previous guesses.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:44 pm 
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KathAveara wrote:
larryf58 wrote:
This is tilting the possible definition of acha toward either sun or light, which are two of the proposed definitions in your dictionary.

It can't really rule out the air either. If the air itself is acidic, the eyes would be the first thing to be damaged (cf. the effects of chlorine in WW1)

What Gehn says originally about ahchah is:

.ril leeahm lekenen hoosahtay b’fahsee okh [ee]n okh mishtahtahvoy met fahm
No [leahm] has been entirely [hoosahtay] of [any] of my construction this far

gætah chilesh brevog wotsah okh r’ahchah te ah sev mot
due mainly to the harsh nature of the [ahchah] [within] that age.

But later he says:

.kokenen revog miro okh revíduh mot kopoogoen b’ken erth nuhdahtahv b’rish
It was the toxic nature of the [víduh] that [proved] to be very much a [nuhdahtahv]

be erth teejah teegahl kerah
to a brave working [team].

EDIT: When Gehn goes outside in his new Age he wears both goggles and gloves. So perhaps what he handles in his research there is the thing that is toxic.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:01 pm 
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Quote:
In the word we have for the society the D'ni descended from, the '-vtē' is dropped from rovtē. They called themselves the people-root, but contracted it down to Ronā rather than Rovtēnā.

I may be misunderstanding this completely, but are you suggesting that ro is actually derived from rovtee? If so, there isn't a shred of evidence for this, other than the similarity in form (something which can be shown to be highly misleading), since "people" as the plural of "person" must be distinguished from "people" as in an ethnic group. Besides, a more likely derivation is the reverse, for rov to be some singulative of ro, with an affix -v.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:35 am 
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This collective sense of ‘people’ represented by a different word ro is also seen another compound, namely bah’ro ‘beast-people’. In this case the collective was apparently used as either singular or plural, as with English sheep or fish.

The possibility that rov is etymologically derived from ro + a singulative suffix -v is supported, to a certain extent, by the adverb preniv ‘once again’, which may have been derived with the same suffix.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:59 am 
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Khreestrefah wrote:
This collective sense of ‘people’ represented by a different word ro is also seen another compound, namely bah’ro ‘beast-people’. In this case the collective was apparently used as either singular or plural, as with English sheep or fish.


Ronay and Bahro are the only two words I know of that use ro to mean people. Both are pronouns, and neither have ever been explained by RAWA. But contractions? Gahreesen is one of them, and the names of the various guilds are also examples. RAWA has explained all of those in detail.

That's why I chose to explain rovtē the way I did; there are no other cases where rov was shortened by omitting the v, but there are many examples of contracted pronouns. It's easy to think that names given to societies would be among them.

In any case, my main goal was to point out that the use of ro for people is an interesting aberration.

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The possibility that rov is etymologically derived from ro + a singulative suffix -v is supported, to a certain extent, by the adverb preniv ‘once again’, which may have been derived with the same suffix.


That's kind of a stretch. Just because they both end with -v? "Once again" isn't a collective term for anything, so I can't really see the final v making it singular. Or did you mean that it has a more generic effect, like -ts? If so, how would you tie the proposed suffix together with those two words that are so far apart in meaning? It may be because it's late and I'm sleepy, but I can't see a connection.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:56 am 
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Larry, I was responding to an idea expressed by Kath, which apparently you did not understand, so lets step back a bit :)

First of all one has to be conscious of the fact that in English the word person is irregular in its normal usage. Whereas we say there is one book in the room vs. there are four books in the room, on the other hand we say there is one person in the room vs. there are four people in the room.

This is a peculiarity of English that does not apply to D’ni. In that language one says kenen kor fah trehern vs. keneet kortee tor trehern, and one also says kenen rov fah trehern vs. keneet rovtee tor trehern. There is no irregularity, and therefore rov is translated as "person" while the plural rovtee which means 'more than one person', is translated as "people."

But there is also another meaning of English people to refer to the totality of members of a particular nation, class, community, enthicity, ancestry etc., such as "the American people" or "the people of Great Britain." And if you talk about more than one of these doing something in common you would use the plural peoples. For example: “The British, Americans, and Australians are three English-speaking peoples.”

This collective meaning 'people' is expressed in D'ni by the singular noun ro while the plural 'peoples' would be rotee (which has also been published but without a translation). It is true that this word ro is only attested in compounds, but that is not surprising, because when the D'ni want to express a group name like "People of the Root" they often use a compound word, one of which is the kind of group expressed by a singular noun (like tel 'guild') with the words we translate "of the" left out.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:25 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
Both are pronouns

Um, you mean proper nouns.

Quote:
But contractions? Gahreesen is one of them, and the names of the various guilds are also examples.

Actually, D'ni only seems to contract names that would otherwise be very long (the only exception I can think of is Relto, but that's really just an example of dropping an apostrophe in r'el to). There's a similar practice on road signs (at least in Britain) where names that are too long to fit are abbreviated. Additionally, these contractions/abbreviations follow a well-defined pattern of what is omitted. The purported rovtee > ro satisfies none of this.

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In any case, my main goal was to point out that the use of ro for people is an interesting aberration.

As Khrees has explained, you are misunderstanding the role of ro.

Quote:
"Once again" isn't a collective term for anything, so I can't really see the final v making it singular.

Khrees' whole point is that "once again" isn't a collective, because it has -v, according to his suggestion.

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