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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:41 am 
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Maybe “people” is ron (attested in Crossw). I haven’t check, but if that’s so, perhaps it’s -n that marks a collective. It would make *ron-né > roné more likely.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:35 pm 
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That would still leave bah'ro without an analysis.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Khreestrefah wrote:
Larry, I was responding to an idea expressed by Kath, which apparently you did not understand, so lets step back a bit :)


I understand the concept just fine.

What has to be kept in mind is that the idea that ro is a word that means something like "peoples" is just as much a theory as my idea that it's a contraction. Other than its appearance in Ronay and Bahro, there is no attestation for it. It's just there and RAWA never said anything about it (that I know of).

On the other hand, we have RAWA's statement that "rov-tee" means people, and several examples where names have been made into contractions for places and groups. So in this case, I'll respectfully disagree since there's evidence for my speculation, even if it's just circumstantial. I don't claim to be correct, but it's a case where my guess is as good as any.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:33 pm 
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No, not quite: ro is not "a word that means something like 'peoples' " -- it is a word that means 'people' as a singular collective concept, when it is not just the plural of 'person'.

Published fact: Ronay = 'People of the Root' (note not 'persons of the root')

Published fact: bah'ro = 'beast-people' (note not 'beast-persons')

Published fact: rov = 'person'

Published fact: rovtee is the plural of rov and means 'persons, people'.

Observation: There is no one-to-one correspondence between the words of English and D'ni; so one has to consider context in translating. And one has to be especially wary of cases where English has unique irregularities like one person vs. four people vs. the American people and not fall into the trap of assuming that D'ni has the exact same irregularities as English -- which RAWA himself has warned against on occasion :)

Remember, D'ni has two different words for 'hope' and three different words for 'get' -- it is not surprising at all that it has more than one word for 'people' . . .

Observation: The D'ni words ro 'people' and rov 'person' are similar in form and so probably etymologically related.

Theory 1: The plural rovtee was formed from rov and then in both of the compounds *bah'rovtee and *rovtee-nay the sequence vtee was dropped.

Theory 2: The word ro 'people' was combined with a singulative suffix -v to form another word rov = 'individual of a people' = 'person'.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:21 pm 
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Note that ro also appears in Terahnee family names (Ro'jethhe, Ro'jadre, etc.), though I don't see this as evidence one way or the other regarding the origin of ro and rov.

There's a passage in the Book of D'ni where Atrus thinks about ro and its meaning, but I don't have the book on me to check what exactly it says.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:42 am 
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I can't seem to find the passage you're referencing, Talashar

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:50 am 
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Well remembered, Talashar :!:

It is on page 199 in the hardcover and 294 in the paperback:

"[Atrus] gathered his wits and began to consider the information he had been given. Seen, unseen, control, writing, beasts … the choice of that particular D'ni word, bahro, was an odd one. It was a derivative of the root word for beast, bah, easily recognized, but the suffix ro had been added. It had to be a key to the riddle. The Terahnee would often prefix a name with ro in order to represent a people group, household, or family. Now he wondered what those combined words could imply. Beast families or households, unseen, what was unseen?"

Atrus keeps wondering about this, observing that the Terahnee use the word for beast by itself for livestock, and a couple pages later it is explained to him that "Bahro, or beast-people" is another word the Terahnee use for the otherworlders, as being inferior to the D'ni and Terahnee themselves.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:08 am 
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Ah, I see it now. Page 819 of the Myst Reader, for completeness' sake.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:55 pm 
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I added some flavor text to the illustration of prådnūrētē. Have fun translating it.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:19 pm 
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[Reveal] Spoiler:
foosahtahvom tomet
Your name here.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:56 pm 
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Okay....

I'm trying to write a joke in D'ni, and hit a wall due to lack of words. Does anyone have a word for "marry" or "wed"?

What I have so far is:
Rovtē brē kokenēt terthtoglasal. Refaets komēsen, "Koeder teminoy kokenet ril bokoanēet [marry]ij. Kokenem?" Rebrēets komēsen, "Riltagam. Kåmfūsatavon?"

It's still hashed. I'm trying to say "before we were married", and I haven't found a good way to say "before" yet. Another missing word is "wife", which is why I used woman instead.

The intended meaning is: Two guys were in a bar. The first said, "I slept with my woman before we were married. Did you?" The second said, "I don't know. What's her name?"

Hmm. Maybe tregor rilgath anēet [marry]ij is better?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:13 pm 
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I'd prefer to express "the first" as refaeth which has the advantage of actually being a noun, cf. kerath meaning "brave one" (refaets is most likely a nonsense word, since D'ni is absolutely not free about zero-deriving words).

For the clause "before we were married" I'd reword it as "although we were not yet married" and translate as loymat ril kodo[marry]etij gath (on the pattern of "perhaps the ending has not yet been written") or loymat ril kokenet gath [marry]ij (though the passive construction may not be accurate, and gath may be in the wrong place). As for a word for marry, there is no suitable known word, even after doing research for metaphors the D'ni may have used, where "tie" is the best, referring to the Ceremony of Joining.

In lieu of an anaphoric verb, it'd be best to express "Did you?" with a repetition of the verb, thus Koederem?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:53 pm 
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To fake it since there's no word for marry, I'm going to use repishoal v'ja -- " the celebration of belonging" -- until someone comes up with something better.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:34 pm 
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First of all pishoahl is a verbal adjective, not a verbal noun. There is no such combination repishoahl in D'ni.

Secondly, since pisho is used by Kadish to refer to the stuff he has hoarded over the years, I do not think that the D'ni would use this word for an expression about marriage, which is a celebration of love not of possessiveness. Of course, I do no think that the D'ni had the shallow view of love and marriage that leads Larry to think they would tell such a joke -- but that is just my personal opinion ...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:11 pm 
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It would be a mistake to place the D'ni on too high a pedestal. They were human, and that means they had all the warts, blemishes, and personal flaws of being human. I can't see any reason why they wouldn't tell a joke like that -- they viewed marriage as being a very serious commitment that one didn't enter into lightly, but a premarital affair? Why wouldn't they? It would be even more improbable to think they all stayed celibate for most of their lives. And where there's sex, there are jokes, just like any other facet of the human experience.

Also, it's known that they definitely had premarital sex. In the pregnancy notebook, it's mentioned that unmarried women who became pregnant were expected to immediately marry.

As for pishoal... Yes, it's not a good word for marriage. But it's the only one I have. Don't like it? That's okay. Just give me a better one!

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