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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:17 pm 
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Indeed, I realized after the post how tedious a work it is. Being the one who asked for it, though:

[Reveal] Spoiler: D’ni to English
abtsē — basalt rock
ano — water
anotam — lava
bantano — island
baronet — phosphorescence
baʦana — map
brūn — tube
būgin — creature
chir — organism
dako — marble
dājē — path
del — star
desēkā — puzzle, enigma
dova — world
doyha — machine
dhānoy — obstacle
galon — ground
galpo — cave
garano — ocean
garēsen — fortress
gel — write (ordinary)
gid — excavate
gilo — plant
gira — steam
gor — time
gorayån — timepiece
haza — white
her — number
hern — room
hev — word
hevo — swarm
idhsā — line
irvån — mineral
kanråd — think
kantin — oppress, enslave, imprison (?)
kazē — detour
keshtav — caution, warning
kirin — desert sand
kor — book
koʦa — gate
kota — locked door
kūan — stream
lem — ink
lena — journey
lesa — sealed
min — woman
miro — toxic
m'la — lizard
mor — mother
nāvū — ten
— root
fa — one
nekis — bend, twist, distort
brē — two
nudatav — disaster
sen — three
ūlba — office
tor — four
ūsha — formula
vat — five
paʦ — city
vagafa — six
pålmen — magnet
vagabrē — seven
pråd — rock
vagasen — eight
re'dåntē — tweezers
vagator — nine
rūā — route
nāgafa — eleven
rūāk — destroy
nāgabrē — twelve
rūn — zero
roshē — crater
nāgasen — thirteen
sel — Write (Ages)
nāgator — fourteen
senaren — building
hēbor — fifteen

[Reveal] Spoiler: English to D’ni
basalt rock — abtsē
bend — nekis
book — kor
building — senaren
caution — keshtav
cave — galpo
city — paʦ
crater — roshē
creature — būgin
desert sand — kirin
destroy — rūāk
detour — kazē
disaster — nudatav
distort — nekis
eight — vagasen
eleven — nāgafa
enigma — desēkā
enslave (?) — kantin
excavate — gid
fifteen — hēbor
five — vat
formula — ūsha
fortress — garēsen
four — tor
fourteen — nāgator
gate — koʦa
ground — galon
imprison (?) — kantin
ink — lem
island — bantano
journey — lena
lava — anotam
line — idhsā
lizard — m'la
locked door — kota
machine — doyha
magnet — pålmen
map — baʦana
marble — dako
mineral — irvån
mother — mor
nine — vagator
number — her
obstacle — dhānoy
ocean — garano
office — ūlba
one — fa
oppress (?) — kantin
organism — chir
path — dājē
phosphorescence — baronet
plant — gilo
puzzle — desēkā
rock — pråd
room — hern
root — nā
route — rūā
sealed — lesa
seven — vagabrē
six — vagafa
star — del
steam — gira
stream — kūan
swarm — hevo
ten — nāvū
think — kanråd
thirteen — nāgasen
three — sen
time — gor
timepiece — gorayån
toxic — miro
tube — brūn
tweezers — re'dåntē
twelve — nāgabrē
twist — nekis
two — brē
warning — keshtav
water — ano
white — haza
woman — min
word — hev
world — dova
Write (Ages) — sel
write (ordinary) — gel
zero — rūn

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:43 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Indeed, I realized after the post how tedious a work it is. Being the one who asked for it, though:


Some of the D'ni words are out of alphabetical order, but I should be able to fix it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:10 pm 
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Great job, Korovev. Very nicely done.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:40 pm 
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The lists are up. For whatever reason, the first list wouldn't display right with spoiler tags, so I just put both up normally.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:36 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Senaren is the D'ni word for building.

Actually, it means "structure". Despite our only attestation describing a building, there's no reason to exclude the possibility that it could also refer to, say, the molecular structure of crystals.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:33 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
lesa is the past tense, sealed.

Actually, it's a past participle, not a past tense. Tense would imply that it's an actual verb, and you could put person/number and tense marking on it, which you can't, because it's an adjective.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:37 pm 
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The writing on the note in shētem:

.lena biv Kenen teneS erTbantE me KElentE rUb reKElen faex Kenen ten ril'xan .kapo rezunu rilDolgelenij gaT

.Lena biv kenen tenesh erthbantē me kēlentē rūb rekēlen faets kenen ten ril'tsan .Khapo rezunu rildolgelenij gath

"Every journey is simply a series of steps but the first step is not always simple. Perhaps the ending has not yet been written."

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:14 pm 
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Tomorrow I'll be putting up the image for 25, which will complete the D'ni numbers...

...Only it won't. There are two more to do after that which do not have direct Arabic number counterparts, and that raises questions. The numbers are cyclic zero and infinity, and we don't have D'ni words for "cyclic" or "infinity". That meant I had to get creative with the known words.

For cyclic, I had to use an unconfirmed word. Graner might mean "circle". I added -ets to it to get granerets, which I intended to mean "circular". Thus, granerets rūn, meaning "circular zero", is the term I'm using for cyclic zero for now.

For infinity, I'm using rilzunu, meaning "unending".

Can anyone think of better words for those terms?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:36 pm 
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zunu isn't a participle, it's a noun, so rilzunu doesn't mean "unending" like you want it to - I'm not sure there even is a reasonable interpretation. The problem here is that we don't have a word for the verb "to end", but we do have words for similar verbs, such as shufey "to finish", or choylaney "to complete", which would yield rilshufeial "unfinishing" or rilchoylaneial "uncompleting", or you could go for a completely different construction, like tsanlemal "ever-flowing", or tsantoolal "ever-growing".
Ultimately, it boils down to a question of how the D'ni conceive of infinity in the context of finite numbers. We get our words "finite" and "infinite" from neo-Latin, meaning "finished" and "unfinished", roughly, alluding to the fact that you can always (given enough time) finish counting to any finite number, whereas the count to an infinite number will not finish.
But the D'ni may not have thought this way. They may have thought of infinity as a stream that never runs dry (hence "ever-flowing" above), or as a pile of rocks you keep adding to (hence "ever-growing"), or (and this is my personal headcanon) they could base a metaphor on the Great Tree of Possibility, which is probably the one construct in their culture that was truely infinite, a stark constast to us who have absolutely nothing that is infinite in our lives. Hence, I shall offer up bivjeruth "every possibility" or something along those lines.

As for the cyclic zero, I have less to say. First of all, it would be roon granerets, since adjectives follow nouns, but that would mean "zero that is circular", which isn't what you're after. roongraner for roonokh granertee "zero of circles" might be closer to your intended meaning. However, I'd prefer something like roonvakh "linking zero", since it "links" the start and end of a sequence. I'd like to have a word like "connect" or "join" there, but we don't have one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:38 pm 
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KathAveara wrote:
zunu isn't a participle, it's a noun, so rilzunu doesn't mean "unending" like you want it to - I'm not sure there even is a reasonable interpretation. The problem here is that we don't have a word for the verb "to end", but we do have words for similar verbs, such as shufey "to finish", or choylaney "to complete", which would yield rilshufeial "unfinishing" or rilchoylaneial "uncompleting", or you could go for a completely different construction, like tsanlemal "ever-flowing", or tsantoolal "ever-growing".


I think you may be working from an error in approach. Infinity isn't a verb, it's a noun. So the word I'm looking for should also be a noun, given that we have no clue how the D'ni thought of the concept. In that respect, zunu fits the bill, since "the unending" works for "infinity". I'm just wondering if someone can think of a better version.

Bivjeruth is a good word, but it would probably mean something like "universal" or "all-encompassing" instead of something that has no end, I believe.

Quote:
As for the cyclic zero, I have less to say. First of all, it would be roon granerets, since adjectives follow nouns, but that would mean "zero that is circular", which isn't what you're after. roongraner for roonokh granertee "zero of circles" might be closer to your intended meaning. However, I'd prefer something like roonvakh "linking zero", since it "links" the start and end of a sequence. I'd like to have a word like "connect" or "join" there, but we don't have one.


Point taken on the word order. There's an inherent problem with using vakh; like other words related to the Art, it probably means teleporting between Ages specifically, rather than a connection of two ordinary objects. You are dead right that a word for joining or connecting is what's really called for. I chose graner simply because a cycle can be thought of as a circle, and that's an existing word in the lexicon.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:24 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
KathAveara wrote:
zunu isn't a participle, it's a noun, so rilzunu doesn't mean "unending" like you want it to - I'm not sure there even is a reasonable interpretation. The problem here is that we don't have a word for the verb "to end", but we do have words for similar verbs, such as shufey "to finish", or choylaney "to complete", which would yield rilshufeial "unfinishing" or rilchoylaneial "uncompleting", or you could go for a completely different construction, like tsanlemal "ever-flowing", or tsantoolal "ever-growing".


I think you may be working from an error in approach. Infinity isn't a verb, it's a noun. So the word I'm looking for should also be a noun, given that we have no clue how the D'ni thought of the concept. In that respect, zunu fits the bill, since "the unending" works for "infinity". I'm just wondering if someone can think of a better version.

Bivjeruth is a good word, but it would probably mean something like "universal" or "all-encompassing" instead of something that has no end, I believe.

I think you've misinterpreted my ramble, so I'll start again. "unending" is derived from "ending", which is in this case the participle of the verb "to end" (not the gerund, which is what zunu may be). We don't have that verb, but we can substitute a different one, such as "to complete" or "to finish", which are semantically similar. The D'ni participle ends in -al, and when prefixed to an adjective (and participles are syntactically adjectives), ril functions much like English's "un-". Hence, "unending" can be pseudo-translated as rilshufeial or rilchoylaneial. This is your "better version" of rilzunu, which in my opinion doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

Your objection to bivjeruth is valid, but I think it can be safely dismissed. As I explained, the D'ni's mindset need not be the same as our own, and given that they have something they can relate to that is truely infinite, Reterokh Jeruth, I fail to see why their word for infinity should not be based on that, and rather on a primitive conceptualisation as a process of counting. Indeed, an infinite multiverse is "universal" and "all-encompassing". When in Rome, after all.

Quote:
Quote:
As for the cyclic zero, I have less to say. First of all, it would be roon granerets, since adjectives follow nouns, but that would mean "zero that is circular", which isn't what you're after. roongraner for roonokh granertee "zero of circles" might be closer to your intended meaning. However, I'd prefer something like roonvakh "linking zero", since it "links" the start and end of a sequence. I'd like to have a word like "connect" or "join" there, but we don't have one.


Point taken on the word order. There's an inherent problem with using vakh; like other words related to the Art, it probably means teleporting between Ages specifically, rather than a connection of two ordinary objects. You are dead right that a word for joining or connecting is what's really called for. I chose graner simply because a cycle can be thought of as a circle, and that's an existing word in the lexicon.

I know about the problem, but there really isn't a better word for the construction I wanted to make. Besides, the semantic link is obvious enough, in my view, in that linking is way to connect two Ages together.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:09 am 
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[quote="KathAveara"]...such as shufey "to finish", which would yield rilshufeial "unfinishing"/quote]

That doesn't end up as a noun. Plus, "unfinishing" has the wrong connotation, IMHO. "Never finished", however, may be a little closer.

Hmm. What about tsanrilshufāaleth? That's a mouthful, but it's a noun.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:44 am 
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Well, rilshufeyth "what is unfinished" could be better (and has the advantage of being short!) Though I still prefer bivjeruth

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:12 am 
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KathAveara wrote:
they could base a metaphor on the Great Tree of Possibility, which is probably the one construct in their culture that was truely infinite, a stark constast to us who have absolutely nothing that is infinite in our lives. Hence, I shall offer up bivjeruth "every possibility" or something along those lines.

If that was the case, a more liking construction would be “all-branching”; it seems to me that using jeruþ there implies a different concept (the whole of the ‘probability space’). The D’ni were also known for their familiarity with mathematics (cf. b’fasí), so I don’t see a problem with using the “counting without stopping” concept, which is ‘simpler’ that the Tree one.


KathAveara wrote:
As for the cyclic zero, I have less to say (...) However, I'd prefer something like roonvakh "linking zero", since it "links" the start and end of a sequence. I'd like to have a word like "connect" or "join" there, but we don't have one.

Similarly, the idea of ‘cyclic zero’ is likely precedent to the linking technology, so it seems more likely to me that the concept would be based on ‘simpler’ ideas like “returning start” or “zero again”.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:42 pm 
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KathAveara wrote:
Well, rilshufeyth "what is unfinished" could be better (and has the advantage of being short!) Though I still prefer bivjeruth


Rilshufā is a verb, and it would be used something like "I would prefer that you not finish". Converting it to a noun would use the -tav suffix, not -(e)th. I added the -al suffix to changed it into the adjective, finished, which calls for -(e)th.

If we go with rilshufātav, we get "that which is not finish" or "that which is unfinish", which is grammatically nonsensical. Rilshufāaleth, "that which is not (or un-) finished", makes more sense, but it doesn't imply infinite -- it just means we haven't finished yet.

That's why I proposed tsanril; it gets us a step in the right direction. Tsanrilshufāaleth, "that which is never finished", still isn't quite right. It would have to be phrased "that which can never be finished" to truly imply "infinite". However, Tsanrilkenshufāaleth starts making the proposed word absurdly long.

...maybe I should just go back to rilzunu as a placeholder. It's nice and short. :lol:

korovev wrote:
The D’ni were also known for their familiarity with mathematics (cf. b’fasí), so I don’t see a problem with using the “counting without stopping” concept, which is ‘simpler’ that the Tree one.


Agreed. Something important to keep in mind is that the symbol I'm captioning is a number, not a normal word. That's why I keep insisting it has to be a noun.

Which D'ni word did you have in mind?

Quote:
Similarly, the idea of ‘cyclic zero’ is likely precedent to the linking technology, so it seems more likely to me that the concept would be based on ‘simpler’ ideas like “returning start” or “zero again”.


So you're thinking of something like rūn'nē ?

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