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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Kicked out by whom - Cyan?

To my understanding, Cyan gave us the guilds (OOC), and as long as we as explorers follow the already in place community code of conduct, we are welcome to chose any guild we please. We chose T-shirts in Kirel, we got assigned to a Guild.

This really smacks of elitism, IMO.

Herohtar wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with it. Unless I misunderstand it, the contract will just basically be saying "I agree to not do these things:" and possibly a few "I agree to do this:", otherwise you can be kicked out. Depending on what it is, the only thing I would possibly have a problem with is the list of "I agree to do this:" (assuming there is one)

But I don't think they're aiming for some legally-binding, RL contract.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:00 pm 
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Dr Britcom Mom wrote:
To my understanding, Cyan gave us the guilds (OOC), and as long as we as explorers follow the already in place community code of conduct, we are welcome to chose any guild we please. We chose T-shirts in Kirel, we got assigned to a Guild.


You did not join a guild by choosing a T-Shirt. You are showing support for a guild.

Every guild reserves the right to have its own member process.

The Guild of Greeters requires members to go through a training session before they are accepted into the guild... is that less elitist than signing an agreement?
The GoG reserves the right to kick out people who don't follow the rules and guidelines. Why shouldn't every guild have the same type of system?

(Note: I am NOT calling the GoG elitist, I assure you that they are the exact opposite. I'm just wondering why they can do something for years, and when someone else tries to do a similar process they are called elitist)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:08 pm 
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Robert The Rebuilder wrote:
We did hear from Cyan about it back in January 2006 - see this link.


Wow, that's cited way out of context. That was about the alcugs project, or otherwise unlicensed non-MOUL fan work.

Take this quote from that same note:

Quote:
We truly hope this period of planning will be sorted out soon. <...>

At this time I would refrain from releasing or modifying any data until stated from Cyan Worlds Inc. that it is all right to do so.


That was "at [that] time," which strongly implies a planned future policy change. It seems that the end of this "period of planning" GD is talking about is clearly what will become the MOUL GoW.

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So, until we hear anything different from them in the meantime, greydragon's edict still stands


I guess, but it has nothing to do with MOUL. And even if you did apply it to MOUL, you can just as easily interpret the creation of the official guilds as "hearing otherwise."

But, what we actually haven't heard about is Cyan's plans for the mechanism of creating and distributing ages specifically in MOUL.

So no matter how you interpret GD's very polite and totally reasonable "edict," there is no reason whatsoever to codify this into the GoW code of conduct until we know Cyan's intentions for the MOUL GoW.

(And as a side note, despite the "edict" being mostly fair and measured, almost no IP other holder has such strict "edicts" about fan creations [think Star Wars and Star Trek fan films], nor do such edicts have much historical legal standing.)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:07 am 
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The Noble Robot wrote:
Wow, that's cited way out of context. That was about the alcugs project, or otherwise unlicensed non-MOUL fan work.


...which included making ages for Uru: Complete Chronicles. GD posted that over at UruObsession (here's the link) in response to someone re-creating Myst Island for Uru:CC. That's why the edict was posted on Alcugs Wiki, in its tools section - to remind people that Cyan is watching us.

I agree that circumstances will change once Cyan releases MO:UL tools and/or ways to incorporate the ages into MO:UL - once we become the official Guild of Writers.

But since this code of conduct is to guide us for the preliminary Guild of Writers - and for now, we can only create ages for Uru:CC - that's why I believe that phrase should appear in the code.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:17 am 
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All this enthusiasm is admirable, but....

The problem here is that you are still talking about creating fan ages. We don't know at all whether that resembles what Cyan has in mind. All of this is quite premature---

Rules about Python code? Has Cyan told you that we will be using Python?

No resemblance to any other URU age? No Cyan content? What if Cyan specifically wants certain elements included in an age? I certainly hope that GOW ages are better integrated with URU than "no resemblance."

AS for observing the URU TOS, well, sure, how you agree to that when you sign up for URU.

We don't even know what we are going to be doing or with what tools, so it makes no sense to be talking about rules, restricting membership in the guild, enforcing contracts, or anything of the sort at this point.

All this speculation is just going to mislead and alienate people.

On the other hand, if you do have some inside information from Cyan, let's begin by getting that out in the open, and please let us know what your sources are.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:39 am 
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Robert The Rebuilder wrote:
But since this code of conduct is to guide us for the preliminary Guild of Writers


Oh? All of the threads which refer to the "unofficial" GoW are clearly labeled as "UGoW." This one is not.

I assumed the CoC was what was "preliminary."

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 Post subject: Re: ummmm
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:36 am 
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Barbarra wrote:
All this enthusiasm is admirable, but....

The problem here is that you are still talking about creating fan ages. We don't know at all whether that resembles what Cyan has in mind. All of this is quite premature---
Barbarra wrote:
We don't even know what we are going to be doing or with what tools, so it makes no sense to be talking about rules, restricting membership in the guild, enforcing contracts, or anything of the sort at this point.


You are right that we have no idea what Cyan is going to give us, but I think you are missing the point here -- we are not saying that this is how Cyan is going to do things; that is why this is the unofficial GoW. We are just setting things up so that when Cyan does give us something, we'll be ready for it. It's not premature.

Barbarra wrote:
Rules about Python code? Has Cyan told you that we will be using Python?


No, Cyan hasn't said we'll be using Python, but seeing as how the game runs entirely on Python, it's a safe bet. They're not going to create an entirely new game engine just for the GoW -- they don't have the resources.

Barbarra wrote:
No resemblance to any other URU age? No Cyan content? What if Cyan specifically wants certain elements included in an age? I certainly hope that GOW ages are better integrated with URU than "no resemblance."


If Cyan wants certain elements in fan Ages, let them say so, but for now, we have a statement from GD that clearly says "don't use Cyan's IP in fan-created content", so until he or someone else from Cyan says otherwise, that's how it is.

Barbarra wrote:
All this speculation is just going to mislead and alienate people.

On the other hand, if you do have some inside information from Cyan, let's begin by getting that out in the open, and please let us know what your sources are.


What speculation? This isn't speculation going on here; this is planning. We may not know all of Cyan's plans, but that doesn't mean we can't do anything.

There is a reason Cyan has brought up the Guilds and created a special section on the forums to discuss them. If what we are doing is not what they want, or we're doing something wrong, they will let us know.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:40 pm 
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We are assigned a guild hall IN GAME by the selection of our T shirts. So, by choosing this shirt, we actually signed up to be groupies and get a back stage pass to the Guild Hall we support, that's it?

GoG worked with Cyan for their guild. The Guild members actively help people in Cavern. And what is the Guild of Writers doing in Cavern now?

Again, I say that this whole code of conduct for a guild that Cyan has put IN GAME, and has allowed us a "pass for the clubhouse" by assigning us a Guild Hall, is elitist.

BTW, I "picked my T-shirt" because I am a writer in RL. Joining a Writer's Guild made sense, as creative writing is my forte.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:48 pm 
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If all of the "guild of writers" posts in the Guilds forum are about the unofficial "guild" that writes fan ages, where is the forum for the official Cyan sponsored Guild of Writers?

I'm sure you all have the best of intentions, but it frequently appears that the unofficial "guild" is attempting to hijack the official guild before it even gets started.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:56 pm 
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What could we be doing that is more "official" than this discussion?

As you say, Cyan hasn't given us any policies or plans. The "official" guild is waiting on that -- just like the "official" Maintainers, Cartographers, etc. Every post on this forum is in the same spirit: inventing an organization we can live with, agreeing on our goals, setting up player-managed resources like wikis -- and deciding what we can do *today*.

We say "unofficial guild" and "pre-guild" because we know this is not the final draft of anything. At the same time, we know that Cyan is following these discussions; they *also* have a stake in setting up organizations we can live with.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:41 pm 
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Dr Britcom Mom wrote:
We are assigned a guild hall IN GAME by the selection of our T shirts. So, by choosing this shirt, we actually signed up to be groupies and get a back stage pass to the Guild Hall we support, that's it?

GoG worked with Cyan for their guild. The Guild members actively help people in Cavern. And what is the Guild of Writers doing in Cavern now?

Again, I say that this whole code of conduct for a guild that Cyan has put IN GAME, and has allowed us a "pass for the clubhouse" by assigning us a Guild Hall, is elitist.

BTW, I "picked my T-shirt" because I am a writer in RL. Joining a Writer's Guild made sense, as creative writing is my forte.


By selecting a shirt you are showing that you support that Guild. To become a member is up to the actual Guild to determine a process.

The GoG has not worked with Cyan, it was started back in Prologue and run entirely by fans. The only time that Cyan stepped in was to give them the GoG member TShirts in D'mala and Live. Cyan has not been in any way involved with the establishment of the GoG.

Do you become a member of the GoG simply by choosing a TShirt in Kirel? No. You must go through their member application process.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:29 pm 
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I'm sure you all have the best of intentions, but it frequently appears that the unofficial "guild" is attempting to hijack the official guild before it even gets started.
I see the UGoW as a shrub from which the official guild grows. Some of its branches will be pruned and some redirected.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:21 pm 
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Cyan DID put the GoG IN GAME. Go to ANY Bevin in MO:UL and look - they are referred to there. Pictures of them ARE THERE! I do know that the GoG was independent in Prologue.

Have they done so for the GoW? Was it in Prologue and then made FULLY INTEGRATED, an in-game resource, used in MO:UL now? NO!

The Guild Halls are THERE NOW. The way I see it, we are being given an opportunity to form guilds based on our interests.

PROLOGUE IS OVER - MO:UL is NOW, and I think that is HIGHLY ELITIST to be hammering out the code of conduct, and selecting who gets to be in the GoW and who gets voted off the island, without the Guild actually having a functional role IN CAVERN.

What, if we weren't in Prologue, we're not worthy? I had a Mac. There was no Uru for Mac AND Virtual PC wouldn't run Uru. I know, I tried, in vain. Does that mean that I am not eligible to be in a Guild now?

I am not being sarcastic, I'm actually angry. We pay to be part of the MO:UL experience, and should not have to jump through hoops made by other explorers to be able to participate in a Guild. And the condescending tone gets old, fast.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:26 pm 
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Barbarra wrote:
If all of the "guild of writers" posts in the Guilds forum are about the unofficial "guild" that writes fan ages, where is the forum for the official Cyan sponsored Guild of Writers?


There won't be one. Cyan has specifically stated that they will not be creating /hosting additional forums for guild use. They have come up with our own. The GoG is "official" and they have a completely member-hosted forum. The GoG was created via a 'suggestion' from Cyan, with the rest left up to it's members. The same has been done here. This guild has to be started/created by it's members, and when it's work becomes more relevant to live, direction will be given. (either in response to it's actions, or inaction)

Personally, I think that all that needs to be done for the moment is the creation of a meeting place. Then existing groups can continue their projects without interference from some pointless 'hierarchy' until more info is given.

Also, in response to Dr. Britcom: unless I'm mistaken, (in which case I agree with you) the CoC being discussed is merely an agreement not to encroach on Cyan's IP and force them to take .. legal action against .. the guild or it's members, since the assumption so far seems to be that much of the work done will be modification or creation of game files. Something which is touchy subject with Cyan. The only reason explorers are the ones creating the CoC is that Cyan hasn't bothered to provide one in a form explicit to the guild.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:46 pm 
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Where did anyone say that you had to have been in Prologue in order to join a Guild?!

All that I said is that each Guild will have its own application process for members. Anyone can join, provided they go through the application process.


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