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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:40 pm 
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For those who want to create Relto pages...
Storywise a Relto page isn't the only way to get something new on your Relto. You can link objects to Ages. So you could (storywise) say that you link something from the surface or another Age to your own Relto. So storywise there is a way to customise your Relto without any Yeesha magic, but just with the old rules of linking. Right?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:02 pm 
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Theoretically yes, creating new objects for hoods and relto should be possible, as long as they're not done through Yeesha pages. D'ni didn't write man made objects into their ages, as this was considered taboo by them, and dangerous. Instead they constructed buildings like Gahreesen, prior to linking their. So obviously they had to get the machinery and such into the age, how this was done, is unknown. Its highly unlikely that they brought an entire truck full of stuff into an age by touching it while touching a link panel, but theoretically could be possible, as shown in how they got the pellets from E'rcana to Uran.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:05 pm 
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So I could link in a collection of construction materials and add new additions to my Relto hut without violating the rules, right? I really want to add a few extra rooms...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:06 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
......So obviously they had to get the machinery and such into the age, how this was done, is unknown. Its highly unlikely that they brought an entire truck full of stuff into an age by touching it while touching a link panel,.......


You would be surprised. Working in construction and installing large equipment into areas that have only a small door (2'x2') to get the stuff thru takes time. We just disassemble everything and carry it thru by hand. It's expensive and time consuming but that's how it's done. I am sure the D'ni had machines built that could be disassembled and reassembled easily. Maybe one day we will be lucky enough to see one.

It's something to think about when writing your age. If you want to say you built everything there, you have to think about how that would be done.

just my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:09 pm 
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I heard they used large animals to get stuff through...supposedly the link only works with living flesh up to a certain degree. So if you load up an Urwin with wooden planks, put your hand on it, and then touch the link, Urwin and you both get into the Age.

I could be dead wrong though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:13 pm 
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Calam wrote:
So I could link in a collection of construction materials and add new additions to my Relto hut without violating the rules, right? I really want to add a few extra rooms...


Theoretically, but you have to understand the way in which Ages are loaded. Ages can't pull models from other Ages; every new Relto page merely flipped a switch in the game and made visible an addition that was already programmed into Relto. Since we can't edit Relto itself (due to issues with taking up Cyan's space, and adding stuff to their existing work), we can't have additions on Relto itself.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Gadren wrote:
Calam wrote:
So I could link in a collection of construction materials and add new additions to my Relto hut without violating the rules, right? I really want to add a few extra rooms...


Theoretically, but you have to understand the way in which Ages are loaded. Ages can't pull models from other Ages; every new Relto page merely flipped a switch in the game and made visible an addition that was already programmed into Relto. Since we can't edit Relto itself (due to issues with taking up Cyan's space, and adding stuff to their existing work), we can't have additions on Relto itself.


Aw, too bad. But it sounds like I could finally have that bathroom I've been waiting for. Could I write a descriptive book for a bathroom age, link there, write a linking book as I stood near the "necessary installations and keep that book?"

Then could I
A. put that linking book and the descriptive books in my Relto? I am a tad confused about that

B. keep the descriptive and linking book in my be..., er, neighborhood? I think this is yes

C. Somehow strap the linking book to my Relto Book, say with velcro? That would really be handy...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:51 pm 
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There's nothing stopping you finding a new multi instance age although Yeesha said only she could write Relto an arogant statement backed up by Cyan (only joking guys look smily :D).

You could however find a link to a huge area like Minkata where there were loads of caverns but without ladders and anyone who wanted a cavern of their own could get one and furnish it with items selected from a library. Each cavern could have a personalized link portal that encoded to your KI a place where you could issue invites. Once a cavern was occupied the entrance would seal hey that would make it look like Mintaka looks now or should I say did when MO:UL was still live.

Now this would take a really talented fan age builder but it's not a multi instance age like Relto because we all know only Yeesha can create those. But this would not be one of those it would just be a huge age with loads of little private spaces.

[edit] Ghreseen written with the buildings there this is the art of writing an age you don't actually build you write an age where somebody else built the thing but they are no longer there this is why the theory arose that all ages already exist in a true multiverse and a descriptive book only provides a portal to that pre-existing age[/edit]


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:49 pm 
Somewhere there are linking books to a set of very boring Ages that consist entirely of quarries, iron foundries, brickyards, lumber mills, warehouses and workshops. Or...the D'ni, at some points in their history, did Write objects into their Ages. I don't offhand remember this prohibition being articulated. I only remember Atrus trying to Write a ship into an early Age (Stoneship, pre-children from the journal) and getting it wrong, and assuming from that that it couldn't be done. He later managed it quite handily in Haven, and remarked on the fact in that Age's journal.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:18 am 
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Just wanted to inform you, zander, that I looked at Atrus' journals for Stoneship and Haven. I'm afraid that Atrus makes no mention of the limitations or abilities of the Art in his Haven journal (although he does remember the people on Stoneship).

Also it would appear that the prohibition against artificial objects was articulated:
Quote:
I was experimenting with The Art - testing the limits of the rules as dictated to me by my Father. I attempted to create a boat by writing it into the world. I thought everything was planned correctly, yet somehow the boat had become gripped by the rock and broken in half. Although this test did not turn out as I had hoped, I now have answers to a few of the questions my father never answered.


Haven shows that artificial objects are not impossible (I'm always struck by the detail in Haven), but it seems apparent from the Stoneship journal that it was a D'ni rule to not have artificial objects.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:28 am 
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As I've said before once, I think the reason is because you need a way for the objects to appear in the age. Specifically, if you have buildings, either you need some heavy duty trickery (ala Spire carved by the wind) or you need to have it habitable for people who can build it. It's not quite clear if they need to do it though. The thing though is artificially formed objects don't spring out of the ground, so at some point they have to have been built (meaning later you can find remains of a past village or whatever). However, if they couldn't have been there, like Stoneship, the result instead is that to exist they must be part of the age naturally.. like a weird outcropping of rock and sandstone that looks like a ship. Or something.


Personally though I'd figure if you're gonna alter your age after built, do it in undefined areas that haven't been seen yet... or make it just updates and bugfixes rather than new stuff. You CAN add new objects to an existing age, as established by every game to date, but it apparently gets unpredictable and all the D'ni hated it for a reason. I'll bet at some point it also makes the age unstable (Atrus got lucky.. he was careful enough instabilities never obviously showed in the Stranger's time, but that's not indicative of the future, and Atrus was also a bit of a writing genius.)


Course all the final say goes to RAWA, as always.. wouldn't be the first time I've been corrected by him :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:30 am 
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Gadren wrote:
Calam wrote:
So I could link in a collection of construction materials and add new additions to my Relto hut without violating the rules, right? I really want to add a few extra rooms...


Theoretically, but you have to understand the way in which Ages are loaded. Ages can't pull models from other Ages; every new Relto page merely flipped a switch in the game and made visible an addition that was already programmed into Relto. Since we can't edit Relto itself (due to issues with taking up Cyan's space, and adding stuff to their existing work), we can't have additions on Relto itself.


I'm talking about the story constraints, not technical ones. Although I thought Chogon had mentioned that Relto will be editable?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:54 am 
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Wasn't it explained to us that, according to story canon, the Myst games are interpretations of events from Catherine's journals and other second-hand sources, rather than solid, set-in-stone history like Uru is?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:56 am 
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Gondar wrote:
Personally though I'd figure if you're gonna alter your age after built, do it in undefined areas that haven't been seen yet... or make it just updates and bugfixes rather than new stuff. You CAN add new objects to an existing age, as established by every game to date, but it apparently gets unpredictable and all the D'ni hated it for a reason. I'll bet at some point it also makes the age unstable (Atrus got lucky.. he was careful enough instabilities never obviously showed in the Stranger's time, but that's not indicative of the future, and Atrus was also a bit of a writing genius.)

Keep in mind that the GoW isn't likely to directly equate the entire process of constructing an Age with the act of writing its description in a Book. In all likelihood, we're going to see plenty of Ages with man-made constructions that were built after the initial description was created. I'll have to defer to RAWA on the prospect of actually writing man-made objects into an Age, as in Stoneship or Haven, but "building" structures after initially linking to the Age (as in Mechanical) should be perfectly permissible, provided your changes are approved by the parties involved in reviewing such changes for compliance with your FCAL.

I also don't think there is a prohibition against Ages with pre-existing man-made objects in them, like the remains of another civilization. The only caveat is that you can't write a brand-new Age and have D'ni ruins in it. You can, however, "discover" an Age that used to belong to the D'ni, provided that you comply with the rules that RAWA's imposed on contributing to our knowledge of the D'ni.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:39 am 
Gadren wrote:
Also it would appear that the prohibition against artificial objects was articulated:
Quote:
I was experimenting with The Art - testing the limits of the rules as dictated to me by my Father. I attempted to create a boat by writing it into the world. I thought everything was planned correctly, yet somehow the boat had become gripped by the rock and broken in half. Although this test did not turn out as I had hoped, I now have answers to a few of the questions my father never answered.


Haven shows that artificial objects are not impossible (I'm always struck by the detail in Haven), but it seems apparent from the Stoneship journal that it was a D'ni rule to not have artificial objects.


Well, one could query both the veracity and the competence of Atrus's primary source for the rules in this case, but that's probably getting outside the scope of this thread.

And if it comes to that, Stoneship shows that artificial objects are not impossible. I mean, the ship's there. It's just positioned a bit wrong.

But if we are keeping to the D'ni rules as stated by such impeccable sources as Gehn, then there's no room for argument. Accordingly, if you find a man-made object in one of my own Ages, you will just have to assume that I first Wrote an Age to make it in, went and learned the necessary skills, sourced the requisite materials, built the equipment I needed, made it, linked it in piece by piece and put it together, in my copious free time. Just like Atrus did. :D


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