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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:33 am 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
So obviously they had to get the machinery and such into the age, how this was done, is unknown. Its highly unlikely that they brought an entire truck full of stuff into an age by touching it while touching a link panel, but theoretically could be possible, as shown in how they got the pellets from E'rcana to Uran.


RAWA says:

From: Richard A. Watson
To: The Riven Lysts
Subject: Re: Linking Conundrums
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998

Tom M. wrote:
How would you transport resources from one age to another? It would be easy to do for small amounts, like a handful of carrots or something. You could just put them in a bag and link, but how about bigger amounts.

Just find something stronger than you are to carry them...

How would you get a pipe of water running from one age into another,

You wouldn't.

or a truck load of bananas.

Pretty simple, actually. Just look through your Ages for a domesticatable animal strong enough to move the load you want transported.

Source: http://www.dpwr.net/forums/index.php?autocom=ibwiki&cmd=article&id=948

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:43 am 
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Re: The writing artificial things into ages discussion:

Clearly there is a difference between the rules of the Art and the laws of D'ni society. Stoneship, Haven, Catherine's Torus Age, that Age Ae'garis wrote in the book of Ti'ana show this much. Breaking the rules of the art is against Rule #1, but breaking the laws of D'ni is not so clear cut. It might break Rule #2 if the age was said to be approved by the Maintainers, it might break Rule #3 if the age is connected to an existing character somehow (they may have visited hundreds of ages we don't know about, but they aren't likely to have visited many illegal ages). But if these things are taken into account, it seems like it passes. For example, a modern day explorer learning to write could quite legally write artificial objects into his age.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:16 am 
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I have no problem that Atrus was hampered by the skills imparted to him by Ghen.

And that Atrus had a prodigious natural talent.

I am beginning to see that this is one area where the "Art" as an IC function and "Age Writing" as an OOC computer gaming skill restricted by the Myst rules set in place by Cyan have a certain musical and poetic resonance.

I like the discussion. 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:12 am 
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Gondar wrote:
As I've said before once, I think the reason is because you need a way for the objects to appear in the age. Specifically, if you have buildings, either you need some heavy duty trickery (ala Spire carved by the wind) or you need to have it habitable for people who can build it. It's not quite clear if they need to do it though. The thing though is artificially formed objects don't spring out of the ground, so at some point they have to have been built (meaning later you can find remains of a past village or whatever). However, if they couldn't have been there, like Stoneship, the result instead is that to exist they must be part of the age naturally.. like a weird outcropping of rock and sandstone that looks like a ship. Or something.


That theory works until you get to the point where Atrus wrote the Link Chambers into Haven and Spire. Achenar and Sirrus didn't build them (illustrated by Sirrus' journal where he reasons it was the work of this father) and there was no one else in the Age to build them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:58 am 
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Calam wrote:
Although I thought Chogon had mentioned that Relto will be edible?

Edited to show what I read. :lol:

Re: the linking chambers in Haven and Spire.
Didn't Atrus mention that he had help from the D'ni when they built the chamber in Tomahna? That means they knew about the chambers in the ages and allowed it which makes me wonder if it was prohibited at all. Maybe it was advised against or maybe they didn't think their rules applied in the same way to Atrus.
Buuuut since the chambers are made of nara to me it seems very strange that they could be written in after the link was made without causing instabilities or any change at all (I doubt there are natural deposits of nara in either if the ages). There must be some kind of difference between writing it in the descriptive book and bringing it into the age by linking there. Which makes me think that Gondar is right even though Revelation says otherwise.

I'm glad I'm not the D'ni Historian. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:08 pm 
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I don't think that really applies there Junee, the new D'ni had their empire ripped apart, I doubt they'd be caring much about the stuffy rules they used to have.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:38 pm 
Bogardan Mage wrote:
Re: The writing artificial things into ages discussion:

Clearly there is a difference between the rules of the Art and the laws of D'ni society. Stoneship, Haven, Catherine's Torus Age, that Age Ae'garis wrote in the book of Ti'ana show this much. Breaking the rules of the art is against Rule #1, but breaking the laws of D'ni is not so clear cut. It might break Rule #2 if the age was said to be approved by the Maintainers, it might break Rule #3 if the age is connected to an existing character somehow (they may have visited hundreds of ages we don't know about, but they aren't likely to have visited many illegal ages). But if these things are taken into account, it seems like it passes. For example, a modern day explorer learning to write could quite legally write artificial objects into his age.


I suspect this may fall into the "left open for debate" category, and it will probably be easier to stick to the trad rules (or at least say we have) till we're told otherwise. Expect lots of people turning up in the Cavern wearing strategically stained overalls, carrying stone-, wood- and metalworking tools in an ostentatious manner, and saying things like "Gosh, I really had to work hard building that five-hundred-foot Gothic cathedral!" in artificially loud voices. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:08 pm 
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Junee wrote:
Re: the linking chambers in Haven and Spire.
Didn't Atrus mention that he had help from the D'ni when they built the chamber in Tomahna? That means they knew about the chambers in the ages and allowed it which makes me wonder if it was prohibited at all. Maybe it was advised against or maybe they didn't think their rules applied in the same way to Atrus.
Buuuut since the chambers are made of nara to me it seems very strange that they could be written in after the link was made without causing instabilities or any change at all (I doubt there are natural deposits of nara in either if the ages). There must be some kind of difference between writing it in the descriptive book and bringing it into the age by linking there. Which makes me think that Gondar is right even though Revelation says otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to effectively make objects appear out of thin air in an existing Age. That's what Atrus did with the linking cages on Spire and Haven, and with the ship in Stoneship (even though that didn't go quite as planned). Catherine did the same thing with the daggers in Riven. Look up RAWA's Lyst posts for further explanations involving the word 'quantum'. :)

I get the impression that it's meant to be extremely tricky both to get the object to turn out the way you want, and to avoid shifting the link to another Age in the process. And I believe that's why the D'ni didn't allow it. So this trick probably isn't something we should expect to make use of.

Writing artificial objects into an Age initially, OTOH, isn't quite as problematic, though it still suffers from the "tricky to get it to turn out exactly the way you want" issue. And if it can't turn out to be a natural feature like in Spire, then you'll virtually always find people in the Age who built the object (or at least find that they were there in the past). It really does seem like the D'ni didn't do this either, based on the available evidence. The guilds of Miners, Mechanists, Stone-Masons, and Engineers gathered the raw materials and built the structures and machinery in the Ages.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:49 pm 
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Gehn's megalomaniacal conceit and Pride was that he created the worlds he wrote, as a God. Atrus was taught and understood that The Art linked to existing worlds of the Great Tree of Possibilities. Much was made in the literature on this point. I don't believe in the abiogenetic (life originating from non-living matter) word-to-matter or "spontaneous creation" of things written within a Descriptive Book. If you changed a book, you shifted the link. Period.

If Cyan says, yes, it's true that you can change a specfic world by modifying the Descriptive Book, then it's a cheat and they promulgate Gehn's conceit via their own. Ah, the irony. So by the very rules the Pride of the D'ni warns us against about delusions of godhood, Atrus's changes to the Riven book linked him to another Atrus's Catherine, and his changes to his sons' prison ages linked him to another Atrus's sons. What is the moral character of one who finds it acceptable to replace his own loved ones with reasonable facsimilies and take another's to be his own while leaving multiple others behind? ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:27 pm 
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If I can suspend my disbelief enough to hold on to the fact that there is a creature that can link without the use of a book or mechanical equipment to any point on the tree of possibility then I can also see the possibility that a description book can be adjusted to make an item move from one age to another, hence not causing the original age to shift.
Basically rather than the link shifting to the age that has your small change, the small change is shifted to your age. Technically it's not making something appear out of thin air.

Think of it in a mechanical way. Make a machine that can breakdown an item into energy, move it to another place and then convert the item back into solid matter. Most would call it a teleporter. Now make a wormhole between two different universes. Use the teleporter to move something from one universe to the next thru the wormhole.

I started thinking along these lines when the big discussion of Relto and turning things on and off started. I think it just shifts the new item from one point on the tree the another. If I can do it manually (link there pick the item up and link back) then I can see it being possible thru writting.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:11 pm 
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Quote:
Expect lots of people turning up in the Cavern wearing strategically stained overalls, carrying stone-, wood- and metalworking tools in an ostentatious manner, and saying things like "Gosh, I really had to work hard building that five-hundred-foot Gothic cathedral!"


Quit stealing my ideas! :lol:

Quote:
If Cyan says, yes, it's true that you can change a specfic world by modifying the Descriptive Book, then it's a cheat and they promulgate Gehn's conceit via their own. Ah, the irony. So by the very rules the Pride of the D'ni warns us against about delusions of godhood, Atrus's changes to the Riven book linked him to another Atrus's Catherine, and his changes to his sons' prison ages linked him to another Atrus's sons. What is the moral character of one who finds it acceptable to replace his own loved ones with reasonable facsimilies and take another's to be his own while leaving multiple others behind?


You're operating on the notion that, IC, the events of the game Revelation are exactly replicated how they occured in 'real life'. Remember that, IC, the Myst series of games are just games, and cannot be relied on with any accuracy. So for all we know, the real story was that Atrus never made edits, but built the Nara thingy-ma-jiggies himself. Or they were never there at all. Or Spire is in fact a total fabrication, and Sirrus's prison Age is actually a meadow of sweet-smelling daisies. We don't know.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:48 pm 
Indeed we don't. I think this is one of the things mentioned in the guidelines as being "deliberately left open for debate." (At least I hope so, because I will debate it as long as I have breath.) So there is also room for my belief that while the Maker created all possibilities, Writing an Age brings that Age from the possible into the real (creating it to all intents and purposes and as far as we'll ever know) and all the other possibilities remain...possible. Which means there is one Atrus, one Catherine, one each Sirrus and Achenar, and one me, and what we do matters and is not negated by the different choices of a million others. And I find that far more comforting.

There is no cause for pride in believing that, unless you bring it yourself. There is no fact, factoid or belief in the known multiverse that can make you a megalomaniac unless it happens either by choice or for some other reason (perhaps illness; young Gehn was a sprottly lad, wasn't he?) The whole Great Big Nasty Pride thing is a red herring. And by the same token, there is no cause for pride in believing that making changes to an Age Book can change the Age, and in almost all cases, the only exception being in the BoA, this is, as far as we can see, what happens. So the Riven that Atrus is obsessively correcting is the one and only real one, the one with his Catherine and then the Stranger in it, and that is why it matters that he keeps Writing. To someone who truly loves, that's how it would have to be, because no duplicate, no matter how perfect, can ever replace the loved one, and yes I'm looking at you Russell T frodding Davies--

A'hem. Sorry. Wrong track there for a moment. So. Pride is not in the thing, pride is in what we do with the thing, and that is, always and forever, our choice to make. Saying that the thing is not the thing is no defence, as the D'ni themselves found.

And it's good that there's room for me to believe this, and JW to believe that, and for us to talk about it in a civilised manner.

Isn't it?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:25 pm 
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OK, so my immediate goal is for a couple of my characters -- one a writer, the other a private investigator -- to have one- or two-room offices that would notionally be somewhere in Ae'gura or in a neighborhood. My understanding, then, is that it would have to be accessible only by direct link, not by door from Bevin or Ae'gura (but if it were part of a completely new neighborhood -- or part of, say, Ahra Pahts -- that would work).

Would this be a correct understanding?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:43 pm 
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zander, I don't know if it's "heretical" or not, but that's an incredibly beautiful post.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:55 pm 
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I don't know if this has already been stated.
Every thing Atrus wrote was after the fall of D"ni.
Atrus had much help thru friends on Releeshahn<ms?>
Atrus re-sided on Tomahna after he wrote Releeshahn


I just had a brain ------ Using the Great Tree theory there would be all possibilities. One could write an age with all the mechanicals already there with out any people there. You would just have to start things up again. I am thinking may be Atrus might have done this in some of his writings. What do you think??



and correct me if I am wrong

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