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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:20 am 
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Thx for the update RAWA :)
I think what excites me the most is that Cyan's intentions have not changed, even if the means of delivery is a bit difficult. I assume we're still planning on creating the Guild of Archivists to ensure the UCC fits RAWA's guidelines?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Thank you very much for the update, RAWA (and Rand).

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P.S. Will this post join my ~25% deletion rate? Stay tuned!


Well ddb, if you keep up with lines like that you shouldn't be surprised when your posts get deleted. Just sayin'.

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but really even though they have made some form of contact with us, but really there isn't any new news, so were not really an further ahead.


Correct. We are only thanking him for the communication, not for an actual status change in Uru (which doesn't exist). They did clear several things up, so this is appreciated too.


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I'd prefer posts like this over silence any day.


True. I hope they keep up with this.

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So it's deceptive to say "open-source Uru"...I'll try not to rant about that, I'm sure to everyone's relief


Right you are. I'm not sure what's the argument here, but many of us simply get this as Until Uru, just with several more options for freedom. Which is *just* what it is. I personally don't look into the "open source" term too much- they told us what we get (shards, fan-made ages and several modification to existing content), and that's it.

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the technology it is built on is not well made. The rendering engine isn't great(see blendspans), the networking engine is atrocious, it has no physics engine(you have to plug one in), the sound engine is okay so far as I know, there is no threaded loading of resources, the mechanism for scripting is inexpertly devised and consequently extremely difficult to script unbuggy code, it's DirectX only, it's not cross-platform(even ignoring DirectX. The mac version is run within Cedega's compatibility layer), it's inefficient, etc, etc. It doesn't really even have any notable features


And today is not 2003. That's an old game, and if that facts ruins everything than open source doesn't say anything for you. If you don't really mind it (or think you can fix it- I would very much like to see it but it's not possible, if I understand things correctly), as most of us do, than you can live with what you have.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Thank you! That was much needed, even if it doesn't contain much news.

However, like others, I am now confused about one point. On the one hand you say that your plans regarding open-sourcing parts of Uru haven't changed. On the other hand, rather than talking about OSMO/MOOS/whatever, you are reintroducing the term MORE, which stands for a non-open-source Uru under tight Cyan control. I am fine with either (even though I would prefer the former), but can you clarify? Can you unambiguously confirm or deny that Cyan plans to open-source enough of the client and server that anyone will be able to run Uru servers independently of Cyan (with unrestricted fan content plus unmodified Cyan ages, possibly relying on Cyan for distribution of the latter), and that anyone will be able to make new, non-Uru-related games using the Plasma engine (as you are currently doing with MQO)?

Another thing that makes me wonder - "to get things rolling we're trying to get a server up and running as soon as possible." That sounds like you have gained new confidence, but you give no reason for that. Are you anticipating any change on the "spare cycles" front? Is there reason to take this "soon" more seriously than the one a year ago?

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We have to go through MOUL with an even finer tooth comb - through source code that in some cases is almost ten years old - and either pull the parts that we cannot release or rewrite them.

I agree with JWPlatt and others here: Please don't spend too much time rewriting things - that is our job. The code you release doesn't need to be functional, we'll take care of that. I'd rather have you spend your precious spare cycles on the parts that cannot be done by anyone else.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Thanks for the update! It's always appreciated.

Christian Walther wrote:
Is there reason to take this "soon" more seriously than the one a year ago?
Good question... I think we heard "soon" a little too often to take it seriously any more. :P But perhaps this time it will happen. At least Cyan hasn't given up.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:53 pm 
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I'm dumb. :roll: I just can't seem to get this whole argument about Cyan's definition of open source and some other fans definition of open source. To me it seems if Uru were "open sourced" as many demand it be then they would have the rights to make any and all changes they see fit. Well fine, but who other than them is going to want to visit anymore after they have made Uru in "THEIR" vision, not the vision of Cyan which is what all the fans learned and have loved. What is the matter with those that want total control of Uru's everything creating their own shard and hacking away to their hearts content, though I somehow doubt they will ever be contented, having that under their total control. In the meantime those that are content with Cyan's definition of open source can stay on that shard system. Everyone this way has a choice, or is that a bad thing?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Jek, there's an argument about this, because, put simply, "open source" means something very specific.

As a friend once said, "Redefine 'work', and anything works."
Its a bit the same, if Cyan wants to redefine "open source" they can go ahead, but don't count on anyone else taking them seriously after that.

Open Source is a fairly well defined term, and here is a link to the actual definition. http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

Cyan has said that they plan to release an "open source" Uru. I don't know about you, but, personally, I'd personally hope that Cyan Worlds has not been leading us on with false promises. I'd personally still be happy with Plasma being open sourced, and the content under a less permissive license, hopefully one that would still allow us to make changes and distribute them, but, if at the very least Plasma is not under an open source license, then, I'm going to be pretty ticked off.

If you want me to give a reason for being "pretty ticked off", well, I've been watching and patiently waiting, sometimes not so patiently, at times. I've been holding out for the release of something that would benefit the community in general, I've been waiting, when to be honest, had I not've been told Uru would be "open sourced" I would've faded into the background, gone and put my efforts into something else entirely. "Open Source Uru" has kept me interested, has kept me willing to support Cyan. I'll be buying a copy of MQO, since MOUL's closure, I've bought two copies of MystDS, a copy of realMYST, a copy of Riven, among other things. I'd hate to find that I, along with many others, have been strung along, with false promises of an "open source" Uru.

fiery abyss hath no fury like a fanbase scorned.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Well I hope Cyan Worlds is actually going to make this reality. A lot of things concerning Uru today are no more than cliches: there is no cavern (an online one), there is no Uru Live, or MORE, or Until Uru, or anything like that.

I really hope one day we will sit around in the cavern saying "well what do you know, Cyan Worlds really did make it happen".

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Thank you, RAWA, and especially Rand.

Not for the "update".

BUT for talking again. :)

I think this is a good sign; a sign which could mean that you managed to leave the phase that can be described as "man, nothing goes the way I would like it to go; I'm not in the mood to speak about it" and now comes a phase like "hey, no matter what, we are still alive, there's a future and I'm curious about what it will bring".

Sure, URU was great; and (maybe/hopefully) it will become great again.

But in my personal opinion I'm more interested in hearing statements like that, like "we are fine here at Cyan, busy but relaxed, we enjoy the fact that we have a life, and not only sorrows the whole day.".

I hope you do.
We do.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:50 pm 
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/me joins the cheering growd :D

Stay positive and it's MORE sooner or later :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:32 pm 
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jek wrote:
I'm dumb. :roll: I just can't seem to get this whole argument about Cyan's definition of open source and some other fans definition of open source. To me it seems if Uru were "open sourced" as many demand it be then they would have the rights to make any and all changes they see fit. Well fine, but who other than them is going to want to visit anymore after they have made Uru in "THEIR" vision, not the vision of Cyan which is what all the fans learned and have loved. What is the matter with those that want total control of Uru's everything creating their own shard and hacking away to their hearts content, though I somehow doubt they will ever be contented, having that under their total control. In the meantime those that are content with Cyan's definition of open source can stay on that shard system. Everyone this way has a choice, or is that a bad thing?

Lightkeeper

LK, I had promised myself never to post in this forum ever again, but your post drew me out. You said once that we live in the "entitled" age: it seems people today feel they are entitled to everything, and if you give them a present worth 10 dollars, they will be angry it wasn't $100. Words of wisdom that I think of often, especially when I visit this forum here.
To me, some here sound a bit like the two grumpy little men in the Muppet Show, remember them? The were self-proclaimed bitter, sarcastic individuals who visited every show, only to find fault with everything... that is what we see here now too.

As for URU, I don't know, we'll just see what comes. "We" shouted for communication, even if there was no news, and communication we finally got, even though there is no news. That's all we can ask for at this point, and it's no use starting to moan over things we don't even HAVE yet... that is MY take.

Back to lurking.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:14 pm 
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Thanks RAWA for the update. We all appreciate it. Happy Thanksgiving to the CYAN crew!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:35 pm 
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Nice to hear something. I may come out and play know.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Thank you so much for updating RAWA and Rand! ^__^ Good luck to you all!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:57 pm 
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ddb174 wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
ddb174 wrote:
If the content is not open-sourced, then they would still be restricting and controlling its use.

Ah, so you don't like that. I get it. I am, and I think most people are, satisfied with the generous prospect of developing the code and tools, and using Cyan's content as Cyan sees fit. It's User Created Content (UCC) that most of the community has really been concerned about all these years, legally and publicly using it, and being able to fix the code Cyan has not be able or willing to fix. There are some issues to fix or rearrange content (e.g. instancing, "Descent") that would need to be addressed with Cyan, but UCC on public shards and open code would now be possible and that's really what we've been waiting for, isn't it? Cyan has a right to their IP, considering the big give of open source code, don't they?

But that's not open-source then. Just Plasma & tools are; that's what I've been getting at. So it's deceptive to say "open-source Uru" as that indicates a large freedom with regards to Uru, and Cyan does not intend to give us that freedom.

They are legally able to do just that. Whether it is morally justified is a whole other can of worms, and such a discussion would apply to copyright in general. I'll try not to rant about that, I'm sure to everyone's relief ;)

They have always stated that it would be open source uru(plasma, tools, server) and not open content uru. There has been no deception going on with this point. If the content were to be released under an open license, it would no longer be uru; it would 6 or 7 or 100 versions of what used to be uru. This doesn't mean that current content can't be modified/improved: it just means that such improvements would have to be consented to/approved by Cyan. Is it really so evil for the core uru experience to be the same for everyone?

-------------

Thank you Cyan for the communication. I agree 100% with JWPlatt and Christian that you should simply remove what is not open source compatible along with leaving a short note of what was removed. Let's be thinking LGPL now shall we.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:11 pm 
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I agree with Teedyo. This is very good news, and I have no problem with Cyan Worlds' worlds remaining intact and unmarred by unapproved fan modifications.

If we get the game engine, the content creation toolset, and the server code, that's more than enough for me.

We'll be able to make our own content and put it into the game, we'll be able to have our own shards, and we'll have an official shard too, and we'll be able to play Uru online again.

This sounds great to me, and I appreciate Cyan Worlds communicating with us.

As for the argument that it isn't news, well, no, there's nothing very new here, but it's further reassurance that Cyan Worlds still intends to open Uru again.

I think they will, as soon as they can afford to do so. If MagiQuest Online becomes a hit, I imagine we'll be seeing Uru online pretty soon.


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