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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Note that the laws of linking are not part of Uru the game. So, seeing as those are not canon, I can break them as much as I like, and not be breaking canon, is that what you are getting at? =)

But...

Whilyam wrote:
As a wiser man than I said: "I'm ignoring this stupidity and stepping out of this topic and I actually mean it cause [this] dude has no freaking clue.


I agree. I'm stepping out and leaving you all to your stupidity.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:18 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
Egon wrote:
I might be in minority, and it's kinda inrrevelant, but I'm old fashion: If information is not accessible directly in the game, it don't exists, and it's not part of the cannon.


This.. I can't get over this. So, by your reasoning, /none/ of the Live Events are canon? None of them. The Lake Light Meter never existed, Bevin is just a myth. All the Bevins are really just Bevins... They were never called Neighborhoods, The Great Bahro Scream never happened. Seret never existed, either. Are you really trying to tell me this is... even partially sane?

This is on the level of "RAWA is wrong!" (about canon)

Since this topic is "Let's talk about ways to improve Uru as an MMO" then I see no other option to look on URU, and URU's story/backstory though eyes of a new comer. Like "I never played URU:CC" new commer. Or even better "I never played Myst games before" new commer (although in this case I see no option to escape from just striagh forward explaining some things). With that in mind: picture yourself as such newcommer who stumbles upon someone mentioning any of those things. Wouldn't that felt like playing "URU:the lunatic asylum"?

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
I think I'm starting to see what's going wrong, and Marten has nailed it. Sorry for misunderstanding, Egon. If I have it right now, you aren't saying that the events of the past aren't important, you're asking how a new player can consider them important when there's no evidence for them inside the game apart from hearsay?

Thats more or less what I'm trying to say here. I just used my "shocking" words on purpose though: to provoke thinking about this issue. Because as far I can tell, not many people realize that this is an issue, and how big it is.

Quote:
Uru's canon, as established by Cyan, dances on the edge of this distinction between fact and hearsay, but now we are effectively alone down there we need to make something more solid, at least till we can add journals or something. Maybe some kind soul could dedicate a hood imager to holding a very brief summary of past events and keep that hood public. I'd love to see the Prologue videos played out on imagers in the city (they're very good) but since we don't (do we?) know how to make imagers do video, if they even can, we could use a quick fix. It would still be hearsay, but in the end, that's ninety per cent of what history is. :)

And I think I also see more clearly that's going on. To put it blindly: if hearsay (and understand You talk here about player to player spread hearsay) is one of the main tools to story telling in an game then You got yourself a serious design flaw...

Quote:
If we believe, and I do, that part of Uru's virtue is its history, then Egon is right; we need to make that history available to players within the game.

Which leads back to the main topic: how can improve URU as an MMO?
Yes, writing a good journals might be also a good solution. (90% of original Myst story was told by the journals. But the things is: they where interesting written.)
I like the idea of changing imagers projectors so they would be able to play vidoes (which from technicall point of view would probably required to convert to bik format).
But what like the most was someone mentioning "memoery necklase" from Serenia. Now that would be awesome story telling tool: allowing people to re-expirence those live event You there talking about even if the player wasn't actually there.
And I think that It wouldn't required big changes in game engine, as Yesha holographic message from clef is pretty much that I'm talking about here. From IC it might be also embedding KI with recording/playing holographic messages feature.

EDIT:
kaelisebonrai wrote:
Note that the laws of linking are not part of Uru the game. So, seeing as those are not canon, I can break them as much as I like, and not be breaking canon, is that what you are getting at? =)

No, they are part of the Myst franchise as a whole. This is that I was talking about when I sad:
Quote:
I do acknowledge that authors needs sometimes to clarify some things, and hence making something canon outside of the game.


Quote:
But...

Whilyam wrote:
As a wiser man than I said: "I'm ignoring this stupidity and stepping out of this topic and I actually mean it cause [this] dude has no freaking clue.


I agree. I'm stepping out and leaving you all to your stupidity.

It is quite sad when people who I was thinking about as "intelligent" throwing term "stupid" left and right without thinking about it...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Since the stupidity is changing its tune, perhaps it's safe to come back.

Quote:
I might be in minority, and it's kinda inrrevelant, but I'm old fashion: If information is not accessible directly in the game, it don't exists, and it's not part of the cannon.


That's not a call for putting the back-story in Uru (which I fully support), it's saying that, to you nothing exists if it's not in the game. From what I see, you just changed your story to cover your behind. Obviously new people don't know the back-story not in the game, and that should/must be added. That's not what your post was talking about. Stop trying to hide behind "oh, you didn't read the spirit of my post" and claiming that you're using "strong" words to start discussion. Your use of "strong" words betrays, in my opinion, that you're nothing but a troll.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:50 pm 
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Egon wrote:
And I think I also see more clearly that's going on. To put it blindly: if hearsay (and understand You talk here about player to player spread hearsay) is one of the main tools to story telling in an game then You got yourself a serious design flaw...

I agree that Uru relies too much at the moment on explorers looking for fundamental pieces of info by asking other players or looking it up on the web. As things are now, too much relevant information is missing.

But this is not 100% a flaw in game design, I think... it is partly due to the fact that nothing is currently going on story-wise. Uru was designed to be like real life; you could go to the Cavern and find yourself in the middle of some important event about which you would be asked by many people the following day; or maybe you would arrive some hours too late, and then you would hear about it from the other explorers. There would have been in-game consequences of those events, and they would serve the double purpose of making the events matter to the game, and pushing people to be more curious about the story.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Since the stupidity is changing its tune, perhaps it's safe to come back.

Quote:
I might be in minority, and it's kinda inrrevelant, but I'm old fashion: If information is not accessible directly in the game, it don't exists, and it's not part of the cannon.


That's not a call for putting the back-story in Uru (which I fully support), it's saying that, to you nothing exists if it's not in the game. From what I see, you just changed your story to cover your behind. Obviously new people don't know the back-story not in the game, and that should/must be added. That's not what your post was talking about. Stop trying to hide behind "oh, you didn't read the spirit of my post" and claiming that you're using "strong" words to start discussion. Your use of "strong" words betrays, in my opinion, that you're nothing but a troll.

That's your point of view. But for the record I didn't "change my tune", and I stand by my words. Until "back-story of URU won't be putted back in the game" "to me it won't exists".

"That's not what your post was talking about." - well yes, my post wasn't about "I think that URU back story should be putted back to the game" (ad lest that wasn't my emphasis). My post was mostly about: "I'm irritated by the fact that people treat some big parts of URU story which is not accessible in any form in the game as an cannon".

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Screw leaving this alone.

The most engaging thing about uru for me, is that it /is/, to an extent, designed such that it is a real, living, breathing world.

I fully support the history, etc, being placed in game. That is not, however, what you said, as Whilyam points out.

You said that it doesn't matter. Then, I asked for clarification - I gave examples. You said they never existed. That was infuriating.

I have spent my entire time in this community looking back on this info. I have done my bit, in learning it, for the betterment of Uru, with my fan content. To be told, when I tried to use this info, again, for the betterment of Uru that is was irrelevant? That was a slap in the face.

It was a slap in the face, and I couldn't even think of what to say... it... it was... beyond comprehension.

And now, you're changing your tune? Saying you didn't say what you so painfully illustrated that you very much /did/?

That none of the things we've done over the last 8-or-so years /meant/ anything?

I'm all for a reboot. But, the knowledge we gained in those 8-or-so years (choru onwards), still *means* something, even in a reboot.

Changing your tune is well and good.. If you aknowledge that it is indeed, a change of tune.

EDIT: http://drcsite.org/ <-- that's canon. Like it or not, that /is/ Canon. All the live events ARE canon. Like it or not, they ARE canon. The DRC posts on the forums at http://forums.drcsite.org/ ARE canon, like it or not, they ARE canon.

You can argue it all you like, until you're blue in the face, but you will be WRONG. No matter /WHAT/ you say.


Last edited by kaelisebonrai on Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:18 pm 
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As someone who loves Myst but missed out on Uru until its most recent return it stuck with me that I was missing alot of the past. I have a bachelors in History and, to me at least, searching the past is fun. I've done what I could to record the info of the missing things in my MOULa's Most Wanted, and stated numerous times with the return of Bevin and Seret I would like one of them to contain a Museum of Explorers History. But a number of fans are missing out because the stories are not accessable, and as the Cavern grows quiet there are fewer of the old sages around. So I can see a number of the new people, the "Bevin Generation" if you will, seeing all this 'secret history' as intangible until we give it an actual presence via journals, imager projections and/or serenian necklaces.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Quote:
Changing your tune is well and good.. If you aknowledge that it is indeed, a change of tune.[cut]And now, you're changing your tune? Saying you didn't say what you so painfully illustrated that you very much /did/?

I seriously would like to know why I'm being accuse of "changing tune". I didn't changed my opinions. I might get misunderstood, but that's a different story.

kaelisebonrai wrote:
I fully support the history, etc, being placed in game.

How is what diffrent form me saying "anything outside of the game it's not part of the game"?

Quote:
You said that it doesn't matter. Then, I asked for clarification - I gave examples. You said they never existed. That was infuriating.[cut]That none of the things we've done over the last 6-or-so years /meant/ anything?

Again, look though eyes of newcommer and tell me how can it /mean/ anything for him?



Quote:
I'm all for a reboot. But, the knowledge we gained in those 6-or-so years (choru onwards), still *means* something, even in a reboot.

I would like to point that I never sad "throw out this all 'back story noncense' out the window". And I never sad that I ddin't like it or anything remotely similar
I sad "it don't exists in the game". As in "rigth now".


Quote:
EDIT: http://drcsite.org/ <-- that's canon. Like it or not, that /is/ Canon. All the live events ARE canon. Like it or not, they ARE canon. The DRC posts on the forums at http://forums.drcsite.org/ ARE canon, like it or not, they ARE canon.

You can argue it all you like, until you're blue in the face, but you will be WRONG. No matter /WHAT/ you say.


Ehh, again simply putting it (and I really don't want to offend anyone) last time I checked I played "URU Live", not the "Internet Browser: the adventure game".

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:35 pm 
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What's the point of this thread? All I'm seeing is a flame war.

No wonder Cyan is not talking as much as we'd like, if this is the extent of the rank stupidity that occurs on their own message board.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:47 pm 
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I too am eternally surprised at the boorish behavior that constantly masquerades as "debate" in these forums (and that's not directed at you, Nye_Sigismund, nor at Egon). Let me be so bold as to say that Egon's point is (I think) one that we've debated before, and so hardly constitutes "stupidity" or being a "troll". Instead (and apologies to Egon), I think there is a confusion between in-game historical record and canon. Canon is also a much debated concept, but I think most people would agree that it exists both inside and outside a game. A canonical fact can exist even if it is nowhere to be found inside the game that embodies the canonical universe. And so the story of Scars is part of Uru canon, but it is not part of any in-game historical record.

My take on what Egon is saying is that he is making some observations about what constitutes the Uru in-game historical record - which is to say, near zippo. This makes the question of canon unnecessarily contentious and confusing, as new (and old) players are constantly forced to search forums and other obscure sources of information to resolve questions. Egon is taking an extreme position, IMHO, which is one that limits the set of relevant "facts" (which I distinguish form canon) to those found in the game. Whether this is a position that I agree with or not isn't particularly relevant - it is what it is.

Having said that, my personal opinion is that Uru is the type of game that will always have an in-game and out-of-game reality, as the preafter adventures demonstrated - and just to make Egon's point, how many people know what the heck I'm talking about? The problem has always been the absence of a dynamic historical record that ought to reside on the DRC site (IMHO).

See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Someone who disagrees with Egon, actually trying to understand and engage in debate, instead of . . . well, sometimes it's so hard to practice what one preaches, so I'll just end this post now.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Egon wrote:
Quote:
You said that it doesn't matter. Then, I asked for clarification - I gave examples. You said they never existed. That was infuriating.[cut]That none of the things we've done over the last 6-or-so years /meant/ anything?

Again, look though eyes of newcommer and tell me how can it /mean/ anything for him?


As you may note, I am a relative newcomer. I joined in the D'mala period, somewhat briefly, to leave for two years, to come back on January 14th 2008. I /am/ of the "Bevin Generation", as much as I would resent being called that.

And it matters to /me/. I /am/ looking through the Eyes of a newcomer, who came in January 14th 2008, having missed: The story of Choru, The Story of Prologue, The Story (limited as it was, it was /still story) of D'mala, The Story of MOUL. And now? I missed the story of the opening of MOULagain, as that was limited merely to the Beta Testers. I have NEVER experienced any of the story, myself. Not even once. I am one of the people you say who would not /care/. Tell me again, that somehow I should not care for the history, the story of this game?

Egon wrote:
Quote:
I'm all for a reboot. But, the knowledge we gained in those 6-or-so years (choru onwards), still *means* something, even in a reboot.

I would like to point that I never sad "throw out this all 'back story noncense' out the window". And I never sad that I ddin't like it or anything remotely similar
I sad "it don't exists in the game". As in "rigth now".


This game is a living, breathing world. And that is its past, and its future. I deeply wish I could've been one of those people who got to see preafter... who got to /see/ the promise of Uru for themselves... first hand. I can only pour over the old stuff... And dream of what could have been, but is not yet here. I wish I could've been amongst those searching for the little tidbits of info, and not be among those who want the info spoon fed to them. But I was not, so I do my bit, and learn what has come before me.

Egon wrote:
Quote:
EDIT: http://drcsite.org/ <-- that's canon. Like it or not, that /is/ Canon. All the live events ARE canon. Like it or not, they ARE canon. The DRC posts on the forums at http://forums.drcsite.org/ ARE canon, like it or not, they ARE canon.

You can argue it all you like, until you're blue in the face, but you will be WRONG. No matter /WHAT/ you say.


Ehh, again simply putting it (and I really don't want to offend anyone) last time I checked I played "URU Live", not the "Internet Browser: the adventure game".


Uru "Live", A living, breathing world, designed to be realistic, with bits of alternative reality gaming. That site, those forums, those events... they're all very much part of this game, like it or not. You don't have to like it, no one asked. But that is what Uru is.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:16 pm 
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All,

Egon used a sensationalist approach to make a point. Some of us grasped the point on the first try, some did not. Now that the matter is understood by all, could we all please discuss the issue, and not the meta-issue of how the point was initially presented?

I'm not sure I agree with Egon's suggestion for NPCs - although I remain interested in a way for people to "relive past events", and I think that could be fit into canon if we were careful about it. And I'm definitely on board with having more journals.

Re: kaelisebonrai - it's very nice that you care so much for the story. However, you and Egon are sharing different perspectives.... if one were to poll a variety of newcomers to the game, some might hold views closer to Egon's, some closer to yours... together you represent a sample of just 2. But, based on past observations, I am of the firm belief that there are more players who need the story to be presented to them, than there are players who'll willingly dig deep on their own. Bravo to you Kael for being one of those who does dig deep... but I sadly believe you are in the minority.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Good plan. In which case, can I reiterate my suggestion for someone to dedicate a hood imager to a (necessarily brief) recap of events pre-MOULa, and maybe if that works that hood could be popularised as a place where such knowledge could be sought? Maybe the Archivists, or D'ni History Guild, or Storytellers, or somebody?

Heck, if nobody else wants to, I could run up a spare avvie, create a hood and do it myself.

It's not much, and newcomers would still have to go looking for it, but it's something we could do right now. And if somebody's already done it, sorry, I didn't know. Which might be me being ignorant, or might indicate another problem...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Zander: I will give it my best shot, to implement such a thing. Perhaps it will be of benefit to all. Maybe. =)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Excellent!


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