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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Zander, you obviously have no idea how the Ages work. All that would change is that you could now pick up the objects, nothing is "short-circuited". Secondly, those solutions were jokes. Third, we need to be able to pick objects up because that's realistic, it makes things easier, etc. There's no good reason not to. At all. It would eliminate frustration over some puzzles, reduce frustration in others, and it just makes sense.

The problem is we shouldn't let claims of realism delay this important of an upgrade. Animations can come later. In the mean time, it could even provide entertainment (come see the floating fishbaskets). I think realism should be addressed, but it can come later. Making the needed upgrades should come first.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:10 pm 
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It wouldn't break the Ages, but it would remove (as you rightly point out) a lot of the built-in difficulty in both Gira and Teledahn, thus hastening the moment when you look around and think "okay, done that, what's next?" Like using flymode to make the Gahreesen jumps. I don't necessarily have any problem with that (Gira drives me crazy every time), but if I'm going to pick up the basket and drop it in place I want to see my avvie picking it up, not levitating it.

Whilyam, the trouble is I don't think animations would necessarily "come later." I can see people thinking that once the mechanical difficulty is solved, why bother? Obviously the animations are the more difficult part of the process, so why not just come up with an explanation that's slightly more plausible than your humorous suggestions (study of D'ni and the Art has opened up certain connections in the brain which enable limited manipulation of matter by mental force), and let the realism slide, move on to the next important thing? I'll believe it if I see it, but to my mind I'd rather it were all done at once, or not at all.

But this is probably going to be one of those things where I say "Cyan used the problem to add a layer of difficulty to the puzzles," and you (or somebody) will reply "no, Cyan made a mistake and you're just making excuses." So again, let's agree to disagree.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:21 pm 
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You've got to be kidding me.

Fighting the physics engine is NOT puzzle design. It is NOT intentional. If it is, Cyan clearly did not know what they are doing. The interesting bit of the puzzle is getting it done, and using the things to weigh down the pressure plates, and figuring out which ones to do it to, and to walk on top of the baskets.

It is NOT fighting a physics engine. That is insulting to my intelligence, AND insulting Cyan's.

That is offensive, and insulting. Cyan is not that stupid, and to suggest that they used the problems with physics to make a harder puzzle is ridiculous, and delusional.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:31 pm 
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The kicking baskets bit, intentional or not, is wrong plain and simple. If Cyan did it on purpose, they made a very bad decision and it needs to be corrected. If they didn't, there's a bug in Uru which now needs to be corrected.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Delusional? Any more hyperbole and we will all meet our doom with utter annihilation when the Earth explodes.

:P

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:38 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Delusional? Any more hyperbole and we will all meet our doom with utter annihilation when the Earth explodes.

:P

It's not delusional to think that Cyan would intentionally make this puzzle impossible to solve on purpose? Please come out from under the CK rock and try some reality... oh, and answer my PM, please.

Similarly, I've been asked to pass on this message:

"Point out that Teledahn was originally designed to be completed with multiple players and that Gira was a very flawed design from the start, and that even Cyan's programmers hated it."

But their hatred was all part of the master plan *nods sagely*

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:59 pm 
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I found this exchange of opinions particularly interesting:

Whilyam wrote:
The problem is we shouldn't let claims of realism delay this important of an upgrade. Animations can come later. In the mean time, it could even provide entertainment (come see the floating fishbaskets). I think realism should be addressed, but it can come later. Making the needed upgrades should come first.


vs.

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Whilyam, the trouble is I don't think animations would necessarily "come later." I can see people thinking that once the mechanical difficulty is solved, why bother?


It does not make sense to implement only half a feature, in this case the "object following player" without the "picking up / dropping down" animation part. The two things cannot be separated without making the game ridiculous; especially in a case like this, where the problem is annoying but it's certainly not the biggest obstacle towards Uru's success.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:15 pm 
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I don't think it makes it any more ridiculous than it already is. Think about it. Why would you kick everything?

Now, Portal and Half-Life 2 solve the realism issue by having the primary weapons (though not a weapon in Portal) have the ability to grab items. For just picking things up, though, Half Life 2 just show the object floating in front of you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
I don't think it makes it any more ridiculous than it already is. Think about it. Why would you kick everything?

Kicking buckets around is quite ridiculous as well, but floating objects in Uru still sounds like a very bad way to half-implement a feature that should "improve" the game. A levitating ray coming from the KI would already be better; it might also help to explain how the D'ni were able to build such amazing things under the restrictions of "no-writing-D'ni-made-objects-into-Ages".

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Now, Portal and Half-Life 2 solve the realism issue by having the primary weapons (though not a weapon in Portal) have the ability to grab items. For just picking things up, though, Half Life 2 just show the object floating in front of you.

Yeah, I never liked to see my Companion Cube floating in front of me either, but since you're restricted to first person in Portal (never played HL) that sort of compensates a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:28 pm 
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D'ni mining equipment that lets you pick up stuff?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Well, that was predictable. Let nothing interfere with the rubbishing of Uru.

Have fun.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:51 pm 
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How hard would it be to make a simple "pick up" animation? the hands doesn't have to fit the objec picked up- there would be a certain animation for all objects- your avatar ducks, picks the object up and walk with it. How hard can it be?

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Last edited by ThedStranger on Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Something else, we don't pick up and open journals. What makes other objects so sacred?

Stranger, I mentioned that in my post, but it was passed over by others in favor of the usual platitudes and stubbornness.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Something else, we don't pick up and open journals. What makes other objects so sacred?

Again, people reading journals with their arms crossed and transfixed eyes always bothered me as well. ;-)
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Stranger, I mentioned that in my post, but it was passed over by others in favor of the usual platitudes and stubbornness.

Actually, you mentioned animations, but you were arguing that it is not necessary to have them...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:35 pm 
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ThedStranger wrote:
How hard would it be to make a simple "pick up" animation? the hands doesn't have to fit the objec picked up- there would be a certain animation for all objects- your avatar ducks, picks the object up and walk with him. How hard can it be?

That's actually a lot of work.
There are very few 3D games where you can realistically pick up objects with your hands; that's because it is very difficult to do. :)

As you mention the main problem is that all objects have different sizes and shapes.. We'd have to do one specific animation for each object.
We actually need two animations for each object, one where the avatar pick ups the object, and one where he/she drops it down. And you need those both for the male and the female avatar. So that's four animations; for each object.
There are several kind of objects: cones; Gira baskets, Teledahn bones, various Teledahn rocks.. So we have around 5 different objects, mulitplied by 4 animations; that's 20 different animations.

Also, we need to fundamentaly change the avatar animation system so that the avatar can hold an object while walking. Currently this is not posible; and we have no idea how hard/easy it would be to do. (probably not very hard, but we can't be sure).

Finally it may not be possible to do a good looking 'pick up' animations because the objects are never in the same position.. We would have to do a 'vague' animation where the avatar somehow set up the object straight before picking it up. This will be especially problematic for long objects like cones and baskets.


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