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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:17 pm 
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If developers are expecting universal adulation, without a single exception, from each and every URU player...you know that's not going to happen. No matter how good you think you're being, there will always be someone that takes exception to what you're doing - especially if you're doing something substantial.

And that's to be expected, because there will always be some folks who have an investment in something that will be affected by what you're doing, some are ill-informed and need a little kindly assistance getting up to speed, and some well-intentioned people simply express themselves in an awkward fashion at times.

There are also those times when something YOU think is a great idea just doesn't get consensual support from the very people you think you're doing it for. Happens to all of us occasionally.

Look, if you really enjoy building Ages, then build Ages.
If you get a kick out of coding something that enables a new trick or improves an old one, then do it.
But KNOW that you are doing it for the sheer pleasure of seeing the outcome, for learning on the way, and because it's simply something you love to do. If you're doing this work for public acclaim, or (as said before) if you're very sensitive to the occasional critique or misunderstanding, then you're probably in for disappointment.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Well... Emor pretty well nailed it. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Yes! you nailed it alright... :roll:

and we will see how many fan shards you are welcomed on with that kind of attitude. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:26 pm 
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semplerfi wrote:
and we will see how many fan shards you are welcomed on with that kind of attitude. :wink:

Wow.

If you somehow found that offensive, then I guess we really have to walk on eggshells around here, huh?

(/me makes sure not to blink the wrong way... :shock: )


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:34 pm 
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OK, let's clear up the "evil haxxors" thing, as I'm seeing some meaning has been lost in translation. 8)

For the TL;DR crowd, "haxxors" is neither a critique nor bullying; it's humor.

I don't like name-calling. It's often unpleasant. However, persons who are uncomfortable with the grey hats are unlikely to use the word "haxxors." I expect them to say something like "That's hacking and it's wrong!" (Of course, generalized statements like that one are usually incorrect because they leave no room for exceptions or a deeper understanding.)

I've seen the word haxxors used most when the grey hats poke fun at both themselves and at those who are complaining about their activities. It's sarcasm. Example: Hacker: "Oh noes! He is calling us Ev1L haXX0Rs!" And at times, the grey hats may even step into the role of the hecklers themselves, in anticipation of the response they've come to expect from confused and/or intolerant people. Hacker 1: "Here's a nifty thing!" Hacker 2: "Hax! LOL!"

The sense of humor among the grey hats is a good thing, even though sarcasm can sometimes be confusing to people who aren't already familiar with all of the personalities involved in a discussion. I wish it didn't need to be used so much as a defense mechanism, but I understand it.

I hope this clears up some confusion.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:14 am 
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Emor, the problem isn't a "single exception" to universal adoration or even a handful, it's the vibe I get from most of this board when anything is announced it seems to be treated with suspicion at best and outbursts calling for bans at worst. Beyond that, I get a sort of passive aggressive vibe off many others (your post included, frankly) that patronizes the mature members of the coding community.

Here's the other thing, as I've said before a lot of these problems come from users not educating themselves on the work the coders do. This doesn't mean getting into coding to me. It means hanging out with the coders (not to spy on them, but to genuinely understand the issues). I think everyone can understand coder's frustration at someone who admits never learning anything about Age Writing coming in and saying that the coders' work is inferior to Cyan's work when, in fact, the coders' work is more fully featured than Cyan's. Now sure, this isn't enough on its own to make people quit, but when you compound it with the other insults and snubs over the years, spanning back to UU and beyond, I think most people can understand why this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back... and why people would be sensitive.

It's not an "occasional critique or misunderstanding," it is a constant stream of suspicion, name-calling, clique-making, rumor-spreading, and so on. If it were people expressing their dislike and leaving it at that, no one would have a problem, but it is the organized, targeted nature of the attacks against the coders that is rapidly convincing many that developing for Uru is not worth the effort.

To sum it up, if you think this is about one event, or some number of events you don't feel justify a reaction, you haven't been paying attention.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:17 am 
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lunanne wrote:
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Being insulted over a longer period of time by people who do not want to listen to reason, is usually not called "occasional critique" or "misunderstanding". It is something I like to call "bullying".

I understand that. Please don't feel that I'm mocking you here.

But it's also called 'working for a living,' particularly in an IT field. And you may find it's also called 'parenthood' at times. Appreciation seems to be in really short supply all around. Lack of it hurts everybody, at some point.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:52 am 
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The sad part is that some feel so unappreciated that they have lashed out in anger at others here so often that they have become perceived as the bullies. Then, many people are too afraid to say anything to them at all, even to compliment their work. Ironic, isn't it?

And, on and on it goes...

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:37 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
To sum it up, if you think this is about one event, or some number of events you don't feel justify a reaction, you haven't been paying attention.


We're all carrying some emotional baggage over how we've treated others and been treated by others over the past few years. And we're going to have to get past that.*

It has become the McCoys vs Hatfields. The exact specifics of who mistook a word wrongly, or which persons have said something unkind intentionally... that is all fading rapidly into the past and yet we still live in battle.

Example: I've been unhappy with Adam ever since he came into the Guild of Messengers forum, and started telling us how to do things. Later, I did the same thing back to the GoW. Adam and I are both older now. You'd think we could both mature past this. I know I haven't progressed as far in that as I could. Even while objecting to how Adam's work was characterized this past week, I phrased things in some ways that still showed some hostility to Adam. (Here's a situation where I'm genuinely not at all upset at the moderators for having removed a few things I've said.)

To Emor's credit, and nonlinear's, I agree with their general message, and I don't believe Emor intended a passive-aggressive tone. I see where he sent a negative message - it came out of the last sentence. That was not the choicest set of words on which to end his post, and if that sentence had been left out entirely, I expect his message would not have provoked the same strong reaction.

If we focus on the central message of what Emor wrote, that people are most successful and happy when they do good work for themselves, that's just a statement of reality, not an attitude. It's a truth. As nonlinear followed up, there are a host of real life situations where people are abused with negativity and don't receive a lot of positive messages. Ever see comment cards in restaurants? Very few people pick those up and mail them to write something nice.

Even so, in our current situation, there's so much pervasive negativity that I can't fault the GoW, or any other community contributors, for wishing... needing... a strong positive force to counteract it.

* I do mean this in earnest, and no, it didn't strike me until a few minutes after I hit 'Post' how similar this is to something out of Portal 2. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:05 am 
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What Marten said. 8)

TY Marten. :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:25 am 
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Marten wrote:
Adam and I are both older now. You'd think we could both mature past this.


I don't think I've said anything to you in years... Namely, since I posted/trolled on the GoMe forum. That was so long ago that I don't even recall what the problem was. :\ I would have never known that we had a problem with each other if you hadn't pointed it out... :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Ah, good, the thread didn't get locked while I was away. I hate it when that happens :wink:
I wrote
Quote:
lunanne wrote:

Quote:

Being insulted over a longer period of time by people who do not want to listen to reason, is usually not called "occasional critique" or "misunderstanding". It is something I like to call "bullying".


I understand that. Please don't feel that I'm mocking you here.

But it's also called 'working for a living,' particularly in an IT field. And you may find it's also called 'parenthood' at times. Appreciation seems to be in really short supply all around. Lack of it hurts everybody, at some point.

I want to apologize for that post. Not because it isn't true, but because it's incomplete, and thus only cynical and callous.

Something a friend of mine continually points out, and I continually fail to grasp, is this: When a person is hurt or upset, the fact that I don't feel that way, and frankly cannot understand why the other person does, does not in any way make that person's pain and upset any less real to them. With that in mind, please allow me to finish the earlier post...

What I'm trying to say is that I understand your (all the Writers) situation; I've been there, a lot of people in here have been there. I'm really sorry it leaves you angry and frustrated. I can't fix that, and I'm sorry if I've added to it.
I do appreciate what you have contributed to this game and the age building infrastructure. We may be on different sides of the fence as to how the things you've made get used, but that doesn't make me any less impressed with what's been done.

Nice work. Keep it up.

Non

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:38 am 
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Thanks Adam. I guess this is a lesson for me... to know better when it's time to let go of things past, and grow.

Thanks also non for bringing your message around to the positive side. :)

Looping back around to the portion of the "Planning Uru" thread that led to this discussion...

I see that the GoW has announced the first PyPRP2 beta release! Congratulations! I have a question. 8)

Branan wrote:
Quote:
This rewrite lets us target other Plasma versions (such as MOULagain and even Myst V)


A concern that generated so much discussion (because the word "all" is more subjective than some people realized), was that the previous version of PyPRP did not support MOULagain. From Branan's statement, it isn't clear to me if PyPRP2 0.8.1 can already generate a format that supports MOULagain, or if this is an intended future feature. In particular, "lets us target" seems to me to imply future (a target is something you're aiming for). But because we've had far too much discussion about the meaning of words, I'm asking for clarification straight from the source.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:40 am 
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Marten wrote:
I see that the GoW has announced the first PyPRP2 beta release! Congratulations! I have a question. 8)

Branan wrote:
Quote:
This rewrite lets us target other Plasma versions (such as MOULagain and even Myst V)


A concern that generated so much discussion (because the word "all" is more subjective than some people realized), was that the previous version of PyPRP did not support MOULagain. From Branan's statement, it isn't clear to me if PyPRP2 0.8.1 can already generate a format that supports MOULagain, or if this is an intended future feature. In particular, "lets us target" seems to me to imply future (a target is something you're aiming for). But because we've had far too much discussion about the meaning of words, I'm asking for clarification straight from the source.


Marten, PyPRP2 0.8.1 (and all future versions of PyPRP2) can currently export into several different versions of Plasma is what Branan meant by "let's us target". So, to answer your question. PyPRP2 currently can export into the MOULagain format. Meaning you can build and export ages that are compatible with MOULagain.

EDIT: "let's us target, In this particular case by Branan means that PyPRP2 has the ability to allow us to target specific versions of the Plasma to create content for (Myst V, MOULagain, CC etc). IE you target the version you wish to export to.

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