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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:57 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
Clearly, Emor D'ni Lap - you have never built an age, in your entire life. Because that statement proves it. Because you *need* to test it as you're building it. END OF STORY.

If you cannot test your Age, you CANNOT build it. =)


I have built quite a bit of Age material, costructing the pieces in various 3D apps, and ultimately it comes out looking in URU just the way I built it in the original 3D app. I did NOT need to "test it as I was building it".
The process of getting your elements squeezed through Blender and PyPRP so that in URU it looks the way you originally built it? That's a different matter, and that's what can take many many tests.

Kaelisebonrai, you know nothing about me, and you have no idea what you're talking about, END OF STORY.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:33 pm 
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* Deleted

That you even know it came out in uru the way you built it, means you tested it.

it is YOU who have no idea what you are talking about.

EDIT: And to know your age is exactly as it is in your 3d modelling software... you *have* to have used Drizzle, or you *HAVE* to have used Blender and PyPRP.

Which is it?

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Mod note: Edited - 6/7/10 - see Forum Policy # III


Last edited by kaelisebonrai on Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:41 pm 
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The truth is you need to hack Uru to see what your Age will look like in Uru. A render in the program does not equal what the finished product will be.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:06 pm 
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If you intend on ever seeing your age in Uru the way to imagined it, you need to keep making sure things look right in-game. Uru as a 3d engine has many unique features. It is essential for age building that you actually start the game up and try them out.

In Blender and in 3dsMax your age looks very different than it does in Uru. This is due to the fact these programs are only editors, without the game, you are essentially blind and deaf. Think of the process as baking: before you bake and eat your recipe, you have no idea if your recipe tastes good.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:18 pm 
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Whilyam's got it exactly right.

All I was saying was that creating what you envision can be done in any app.
Once the elements (meshes, textures, etc.) are created, those are saved pieces of data.
You choose to bring those pieces into Blender? Fine. You choose to bring them into Max? Fine. You prefer to build the data in Blender or Max? Fine.
Either way, the textures and lighting are going to require tweaking to get the in-game results to look the way you intended.
I have, in the end, been successful in getting the in-game results to look like my original creations. Testing my original creations was not necessary. Blender itself is hardly WYSIWYG, the PyPRP plug-in adds its own special "enhancements", and I have no idea what shifts Plasma itself introduces. So testing the exports to URU, adjusting my original (once brought into Blender) AWAY from its intended appearance in order to compensate for the quirks in the export pipeline was what required the testing.

I haven't had enough time yet to play with the Max plug-in to know whether it is comparatively more WYSIWYG...Andy, do you have any comment on this?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:24 pm 
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You need to test the Age as part of the process of making it an fan age for URU, as the OP was asking. You need to TEST, as the nature of it going to Uru introduces the test. This was AS I ORIGINALLY STATED.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
Whilyam's got it exactly right.

Which is why you got it exactly wrong. The question is: "How does a fan create an age?"
Creating a render in a 3d editor is not creating the Age.
You disparaging remarks to Kaelis were not necessary, were not present when you first posted, and are not welcome here.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:30 am 
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@Emor,

Since you asked......[puts on tutorial hat]

3ds Max does not have a very good WYSIWYG in it's 3D view. Let's take a look:

Here is a scene from my latest Age, Neolbah in Max's 3D View port:

Image

As you can see, it's bright....very, very bright. Now here is how it looks when Plasma runs it:

Image

No where near as bright, as you can tell. There is a reason for this. Here is Max's lighting you can pick from:

Image

You can use any of these if you desire.....and it will affect your textures of your objects....but the lights themselves will NOT be exported. But the effect will still be on your textures.

Normally, if you want the lights to be in the Age, affecting your objects, and more specifically, the player(s), then you need to use Plasma RunTime lights:

Image

And of course, you don't get these with Max off the shelf, nor with Blender off the shelf...you have to have a plugin of some sort to give you these. In this case here in Max, it is Cyan's Plugin that is giving me these choices.

Let's look at another example of how, yes, you could build all your objects in some other 3D software program (I actually build my objects in Blender, as I find it easier, and then import them to Max), you could even texture them as you say....to a large ball park....but again, you'll have a problem when it comes to blending those textures together.

Let's look in my 3D scene window in Max again:

Image

This is my cave walk way. Look at the walls. You can see different textures...but they are not blended together very smoothly. There is a good reason for this. It's because I'm going to have Plasma do the blending for me in game:

Image
Image

Again, we see a major difference between the pre-rendered 3D scene window, and what you see when Plasma renders it. Here's why: Materials.

In Max, I could call up my Material editor and go to town, using all of Max's extremely fancy blending techniques......and then when I go to see them in my Age after export...guess what? They won't be there.....
That's because Plasma has it's own way of doing things. When we call the Material editor up, you have to select what type of Material you want to use. If you have Cyan's Plugin, you get to choose:

Image

Note how they all start with "Plasma", heh. Again, you won't find this in Max without the plugin.....or any other 3D software for that mater.

You also need to indicate what type of Plasma Layer you want to do to as this also has option:

Image

To do the blending, you have to actually edit the mesh and select the verticies where the blending needs to take place. You can also use Vertex Painting too, but again, you won't see the results until export and link in happens.

So to wrap up:

Yes, you could do all your modeling in Maya, Bryce, or Some Program That Is Not Blender Or Max, and even do some texturing there.
But I can tell you know, every single fan that has been making Ages will tell you too: You have to export and actually test the Age out to get the look you want and to adjust things. If you're VERY lucky, you might make something that looks perfect the first time. But most people won't. You have to test, test, and test.

Animated textures are another very good example of needing to test. Particles like Rain, Snow, Sparkes, leaves drifting down.....again, you'll have to test them (and yes, Particles in tied into Materials. It's called Plasma Particles).

Wavesets (this is that nice real looking water we see in Er'cana, Ahnonay, Teledahn, Zephyr Cove....er......ahem....The Hoods, etc). You will NOT be able to test that in any 3D window of any given 3D software program. That is "Real Time Rendering" at it's finest, heh.

Okay, there you go. [/removes tutorial hat and steps out for a snack]

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:49 am 
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TLDR: The question was "How does a fan create an age?" not "How does a fan model an age?" Modeling an age NOT EQUALS making an age.

Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
Whilyam's got it exactly right.

All I was saying was that creating what you envision can be done in any app.
Once the elements (meshes, textures, etc.) are created, those are saved pieces of data.
[cut]
Either way, the textures and lighting are going to require tweaking to get the in-game results to look the way you intended.
I have, in the end, been successful in getting the in-game results to look like my original creations.

You might not realize it but "getting the in-game results to look like my original creations" is what we call "testing an Age".
So in other word: You did have to tested Your Age in order to know that it's working in Uru.

Quote:
Testing my original creations was not necessary.
[cut]
So testing the exports to URU, adjusting my original (once brought into Blender) AWAY from its intended appearance in order to compensate for the quirks in the export pipeline was what required the testing.

You just putted "Testing [cut] was not necessary" and "adjusting [cut] in order to compensate for the quirks in the export pipeline [cut] required the testing" in one paragraph. It's rather disturbing...

Anyway:
Quote:
I have built quite a bit of Age material, costructing the pieces in various 3D apps, and ultimately it comes out looking in URU just the way I built it in the original 3D app

Hmm, interesting: and what exactly is Your way of "putting Your Age to URU" ? Because (correctly if I'm wrong) from what I understood You model Age in various "3D creation app", then import it to Blender, and then export it using PyPRP.
And THAT is exactly what PeteC wanted to know...
But to be honest: modeling age in external application instead of Blender / Max 7 is adding one unnecessary layer of complexity to the whole process. Something which wrong if You just starting Age creation.
And if You want something interactive You have to use PyPRP or Cyan plug-in in order to add plasma components to modeled age.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:19 am 
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This argument seems to be getting snippy and I'm simply not sure why.

Guys, if you want to make your own Ages, and you are looking here for help, then there is only one answer available to you: Blender and PyPRP with a purchased copy of Uru:Complete Chronicles. There is absolutely no other approach for a person trying to get started by reading here.

If you want to engineer a new Age development method in other software and with other tools, you are in the wrong place, and if you don't already realize that, you're not going to succeed in your "make my own tools" quest, because it should be pretty obvious that you can't talk about reverse-engineering the Uru tech in this forum.

Go over to Guild of Writers for heaven's sake. Or wait until they get the open-source materials released so we have a Cyan-permitted method to talk about.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:30 am 
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-a!
-No, A!
-a, I say! Are you stupid?
-YOU are stupid, it's A!

(bystander) "...say guys, aren't you both pretty much stating the same letter?"

(both) -No, shut up!

EDIT: Swapped a and A, for the sake of clarity. :P


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:42 am 
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>Andy, thanks very much for the overview on the Max plug-in!
The one thing I would wonder, that you did not show us, was: as opposed to the real-time renderer that is only there to serve as an approximation, how do full renders of your Age look in Max? Are they any closer to the plug-in's output?
(excepting water, particles, and other Plasma-specific effects, of course!)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:45 am 
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Over the past 20+ years, I've seen many people begin learning 3D computer graphics.
Now I'm watching URU fans, including myself, dive into this learning process.

In every case, I've always been amazed at how personal the relationship between software and progress has been. In other words, I've seen newcomers to 3D CG work hate everything about Houdini, but discovered they loved Lightwave. People who found Max frustrating, but found Blender to be totally intuitive, and vice versa.

But the sad part is that so many newcomers who were stymied by their first experience (with software that was recommended to or forced upon them) never went on from there, they never tried a variety of other options because they thought perhaps they were not suited to learning CG in any form. That's why I recommend newcomers sample a range of apps. Sure, if Blender suits them to a T, then that's great: it's free and as folks say the data can be converted right to an Age. But to me, it's more important someone be comfortable with the workflow in an application, so they can really create the objects they envision. If Blender stumps someone (as it has for many), I'd rather not see them walk away from Age creation entirely, even if it means a two-step rather than a one-step translation process.

And on that bit of semantics:
When I'm doing the modeling and texturing and lighting for an Age, it doesn't matter to me which application I'm using; to me, THAT is when I am Building An Age. It's NOT later on when I'm shifting my original values so that plug-in X once again delivers my original intention in URU. It's up front, where I prove to myself that my visual concepts can work in 3D space.

Different ways of thinking, to be sure.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:40 am 
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vidroth wrote:
Guys, if you want to make your own Ages, and you are looking here for help, then there is only one answer available to you: Blender and PyPRP with a purchased copy of Uru:Complete Chronicles. There is absolutely no other approach for a person trying to get started by reading here.

There is Cyan's official plugin for Max 7. That's the first thing that should be recommended to anyone trying to get started by reading here. Then, since Max 7 is hard to find, there's also what should be considered a last-resort option of looking at the GoW wiki. ;-)


BTW, it's nice to prove, in case it was necessary, that there can be an open discussion about Age Creation in these forums. Of course, it would make no sense (in any case) to repost all the information that can be easily found on the GoW website. So much for redacted messages, I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:49 am 
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Simone wrote:
vidroth wrote:
Guys, if you want to make your own Ages, and you are looking here for help, then there is only one answer available to you: Blender and PyPRP with a purchased copy of Uru:Complete Chronicles. There is absolutely no other approach for a person trying to get started by reading here.

There is Cyan's official plugin for Max 7. That's the first thing that should be recommended to anyone trying to get started by reading here. Then, since Max 7 is hard to find, there's also what should be considered a last-resort option of looking at the GoW wiki. ;-)


BTW, it's nice to prove, in case it was necessary, that there can be an open discussion about Age Creation in these forums. Of course, it would make no sense (in any case) to repost all the information that can be easily found on the GoW website. So much for redacted messages, I guess.


No, the 3dsmax plugin should not be the first thing that is recommended. Sorry, but it shouldn't be.

Again, also note that /none/ of the actual Age Creation process was discussed at all, Simone. The message is still redacted.


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