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 Post subject: Eder Tomahn, a WIP
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Well work is coming along nicely on Tomahn. Originally meant as a GoW DLC entry, I unfortunately ran out of time due to other projects.

However, things are finally coming together on it.

Eder Tomahn is not to be confused with the rest room we see in Myst V that is close to the bottom. Here's a screen shot of looking down the Great Shaft from the one in Myst V:

[spoiler]
Image
[/spoiler]

As you can see, you're not so far from the bottom that you can see it.

In my Eder Tomahn, it's actually located about midway on the Great Shaft (and 3 miles is pretty far to look down). Here's looking down from Eder Tomahn:

[spoiler]
Image
[/spoiler]

Careful! One slip and you'll be falling for quite a while before you go splat at the bottom!

The rest room of Eder Tomahn is very much like the one we see in Myst V, but is different in that it does not have bedding, blankets, etc:

[spoiler]
Image
[/spoiler]

The other difference is that the back door is open, leading you to a small pub that was run by Ch'uk:

[spoiler]
Image

Image

Image
[/spoiler]

There is seating for 34 (and yes, the seats work, heh).

Further in, you'll find a small kitchen where food was made, and small living quarters for the owner.

Lighting and details are still being worked on, but I think it's pretty good so far

(Edited to add spoiler tags, 'cause the forum is too skinny! hehehehe)

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Last edited by andylegate on Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Nice.

About that first step off the tunnel trail. -- obviously they had no OSHA to contend with back when the shaft was constructed.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:26 pm 
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You kept those awful supports, Andy. Also, I question how the D'ni could have a bar in a shaft they had not yet completed nor opened.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:45 am 
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You need to go back and re-read your Myst books. The D'ni finished the shaft (The Grand Masters decided against allowing the shaft to finish all the way to the surface just before it was due to do so).

The support beams make a LOT more sense than not having any (sounds like you also need to brush up on your engineering), and the seismic activity was mentioned in the books (and show / felt in Myst V) that goes on there since it's not as geologically stable as the Cavern (as the Cavern is actually many, many miles away from where the Great Shaft is.....also sounds like you need to brush up on your geology and the journals located in Ae'gura).

Atrus grandfather was a young man when the shaft was almost complete. Several decades passed from when the shaft was finished, to the fall of the D'ni empire. There could be off shoots in the Great Shaft that are not mentioned anywhere.

Or it could be just like any historical sites we have here in the US (or around the world for that matter). D'ni tourists actually travel to the top of the shaft, just to go there (have you never taken a vacation and gone some place, just to say that you've been there?).
For all we know, a LOT of D'ni middle class traveled to the top of the shaft simply to take pictures and buy cheesy T-Shirts that say stuff like "I Lost My Heart Atop The GS!"

We DO know that SOMEONE was using the shaft. Even the shaft in Uru:CC and MOUL, when you link in to the rest room there, you see bedding laying around.

In any case, it comes down to this: It's a wide open slate that can be played around with. It follows RAWA's guidelines for creating places down there.

But most importantly: I'll make what I like, how I like, the way I like, where I like. I don't need your approval, because I've already gotten the approval that I need.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:37 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Eder Tomahn, a WIP
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:51 am 
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This looks great! I hope someday I get to explore it. I'm glad you made all the seats sit-able, because I'm the type of person who'd sit in them all. :D

andylegate wrote:
In my Eder Tomahn, it's actually located about midway on the Great Shaft (and 3 miles is pretty far to look down). Here's looking down from Eder Tomahn:


Erm… I may have to brush up on my D'ni knowledge as well, but I believe Great Shaft is 3 miles in total height.

MystLore wrote:
It consists mainly of a vertical tube, about 3 miles in length, with circular stairs as well as elevators to transport people up and down.


Esher (at the bottom of Great Shaft) wrote:
Stand in awe! The surface is 3 miles above us. 3 miles!


So you're actually looking 1.5 miles down. Minor quibble, I know. :wink:[/quote]

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:31 pm 
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This is so great, Andy, and in general I have to say that I enjoy and love how
you all are finally breathing life into the cavern, into all those beautiful houses,
facades, portals, courtyards etc... And yes, I'd like to sit there as well and I'd
love to see the kitchen, of course lol... :P

It's only human to have the desire to look behind those houses and facades, to
open those shutters and storefronts etc. esp. when you got to know most of the
culture and life of a great ancient civilisation... you like to see and get a closer
feeling and deeper personal impression how they actually lived in their everyday
life etc....

Yeah, that's why I love all the submissions to the D'ni locations contest like Tweek's
Fehnir House, Sholek's Temple by Whilyam, Justin's amazing Tsoidahl Prad and Rusty's
awesome Gallery... They are all breathtaking... You can finally walk those side streets,
those narrow alleys and open the doors and have a look inside the homes and other
places like work places, galleries and other establishments and facilities etc. of the D'ni...

Please go on with your great work, dear age writers, and don't let anything or anybody
drag you down... Go on developing and unfolding your creative skills and your passion
and above all never forget the fun... Thanks a lot to all of you... :D

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Last edited by janaba1 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:40 pm 
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andylegate wrote:
For all we know, a LOT of D'ni middle class traveled to the top of the shaft simply to take pictures and buy cheesy T-Shirts that say stuff like "I Lost My Heart Atop The GS!"

:D


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:59 pm 
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I keep thinking I should put imagers up where people can see them, sort of like a sports bar:

"Coming to you LIVE from Laki! An epic battle in the arena that you won't want to miss! Tonight at 8pm KI time! Sponsored by the Teledahn Spore Bread Company: Eat Fresh!"

.......or would that be a bit over the top? heheheheheheheh.

Yaaaahhh. That would be a bit over the top.

As for the kitchen......I'm waiting on a RAWA to get back with me on that. I've not been able to find any really good references to D'ni cooking. I mean I don't want cooking tips! I want to know what a basic D'ni kitchen would be like.

Did they use fire pits? Wood burning stoves? (I mean they'd have to get the wood from other Ages, that's a bit of a bother). Coal burning devices?
Natural gas? They could mine that stuff, and would know that it burns.

Problem is taking care of the exhaust in all of those cases....don't want to cook, and kill people at the same time!

Did they have something more exotic?

So when I get an answer back (if he says they all hit MacDonalds I'm gonna scream) I'll be able to finish the kitchen.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Hey, we have Kahlo Pub with sports bar imagers… I love the Laki idea!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:56 am 
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andylegate wrote:
You need to go back and re-read your Myst books. The D'ni finished the shaft (The Grand Masters decided against allowing the shaft to finish all the way to the surface just before it was due to do so).

The Shaft was left unfinished. This is easiest shown by comparing tomahntee at the top and bottom of the Shaft.

Quote:
The support beams make a LOT more sense than not having any (sounds like you also need to brush up on your engineering), and the seismic activity was mentioned in the books (and show / felt in Myst V) that goes on there since it's not as geologically stable as the Cavern (as the Cavern is actually many, many miles away from where the Great Shaft is.....also sounds like you need to brush up on your geology and the journals located in Ae'gura).

I can't name all the buildings in D'ni and elsewhere that look like they need supports, but don't have them. Also we only have Myst V's (innaccurate) account of geological stability to go off of. All D'ni areas, including the portion of the Cleft above ground, were portrayed as unstable. In all likelhood, this was a game mechanic designed to make the player feel like D'ni falling apart tied to the Tablet's captivity. Assuming it isn't, though, K'veer was also similarly unstable yet in Uru it isn't.

Quote:
We DO know that SOMEONE was using the shaft. Even the shaft in Uru:CC and MOUL, when you link in to the rest room there, you see bedding laying around.
remnants from Shaft workers, Atrus, Gehn, Yeesha, DRC, etc. None of them opened pub there, I'm sure.

Quote:
In any case, it comes down to this: It's a wide open slate that can be played around with. It follows RAWA's guidelines for creating places down there.

But most importantly: I'll make what I like, how I like, the way I like, where I like. I don't need your approval, because I've already gotten the approval that I need.

That's fine, I'm not saying you shouldn't make it or that you need my approval. I'm just commenting on your area. I don't like the supports because they're ugly and aren't present in the supposedly-canon version in Uru. I also don't think a pub is a realistic addition to the Shaft. I'd think it'd fit better as an interior in he district near the Shaft, perhaps.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:51 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
The Shaft was left unfinished. This is easiest shown by comparing tomahntee at the top and bottom of the Shaft.


Okay, if you're going to say it's "unfinished" because it did not go completely to the surface (by a matter of a 100 feet or so), then be my guest. To me, it's a finished structure, as it was capped, and close enough to the surface that a small enough explosion by Atrus was enough to gain access to it.

Whilyam wrote:
I can't name all the buildings in D'ni and elsewhere that look like they need supports, but don't have them. Also we only have Myst V's (innaccurate) account of geological stability to go off of. All D'ni areas, including the portion of the Cleft above ground, were portrayed as unstable. In all likelhood, this was a game mechanic designed to make the player feel like D'ni falling apart tied to the Tablet's captivity. Assuming it isn't, though, K'veer was also similarly unstable yet in Uru it isn't.


It's called the Python Earthquake file in Myst V. Me and others I know are working on it for Uru.
The supports make more sense in this area because the shaft, like a building, requires supports that are on the inside. Early engineering feats like some cathedrals that were build in the middle ages had to have supports on the outside. Supports for buildings are normally hidden within the building or made so that it looks more like part of the building than something that is holding it up. Hard to do that with a large, open shaft, as the inside is the very thing you are trying to hold open.

Whilyam wrote:
remnants from Shaft workers, Atrus, Gehn, Yeesha, DRC, etc. None of them opened pub there, I'm sure.


Again, the workers were in a machine that was vast. A lot like the machines we use today to bore tunnels through mountains. Our machines cut into the rock, grind it up, carry it away. These machines even spray a type of quick concrete on to the tunnel walls as it advances down the shaft.
The description of this huge vessel was described quite well in the Myst books, and showed how it even fused the rock on the shaft's side to help with stability.
It actually had living quarters in it for the workers.
And while I agree that more than likely Atrus, Gen, Yeesha, Ti'anna, nor the DRC opened up a pub somewhere there, there is nothing to suggest that NO ONE used the shaft to navigate to other places underground, and that someone would eventually open up some place there. The D'ni civilization was not contained in just the Cavern, the islands on the lake and hoods in the walls. The journals in Uru itself clearly describe expedition teams going out and making new tunnels and areas.
So again, while you personally might feel that what I'm making is not possible, there is absolutely NOTHING saying that it is impossible, or even improbable.
You seem to think that once it was built, it was then ignored. That no one in the D'ni civilization would be even the slightest interest in a engineering feat as massive as that.
Why do people visit the Hoover Dam? Thousands of tourist visit there each year, simply to personally see that feat of engineering. Why climb to the top of some of the largest skyscrapers? Not to get up high. You can go a lot higher in a jet, or by climbing a mountain. They go up on top of the building, just to say that they've been there, that they've stood atop a huge piece of engineering.

There's nothing to suggest that the D'ni were different in anyway from that. Nor is there anything to suggest that no D'ni would not be interested in capatalizing on that tourism by having a place to stop, rest, eat and drink something.

I have the supports there because they make more sense to me. I'm using the shaft from Myst V, because most people that I've talked to are like me: they like the way it looks much better than the dark, dank hole that's in Uru. To me (and others) there are places in Myst V that are much better than in Uru itself, like K'Veer. Just looks better, more is there, and more to explore.

There are MILES of tunnels leading from the Cleft to the Cavern. The exploration of D'ni shouldn't always be just Ae'gura, the Hoods, or even just the Cavern itself. I'd LOVE to see someone sit down with the Map and make some of those tunnels and other caverns that are on the journey from the Cleft to the Cavern.

However, as you said, you don't care for what I've made, and that's cool, no one is going to twist your arm to go there. Today it's Eder Tomahn. Tomorrow it will be some other place that I'm working on that's actually in another Age. Then back to Neolbah to further the storyline there, and then I'll jump back over to Serene that I've imported to Max to make a lot of improvements and bigger.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:15 pm 
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I also recall that the novels said that the shaft was completed, but that the surface was never breached because they decided against it, as Andy says. Aitrus' Map also seems to show a completed shaft. (Of course, the Myst franchise's canon is inconsistent especially since Uru came out, so some people will side with the books and some with various other sources.)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:09 pm 
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You're lack of knowledge disturbs me... okay, it doesn't, I just wanted to use the meme.
andylegate wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
The Shaft was left unfinished. This is easiest shown by comparing tomahntee at the top and bottom of the Shaft.


Okay, if you're going to say it's "unfinished" because it did not go completely to the surface (by a matter of a 100 feet or so), then be my guest. To me, it's a finished structure, as it was capped, and close enough to the surface that a small enough explosion by Atrus was enough to gain access to it.

"Unfinished" because the sections near the surface are rougher and... less finished... than those near the base. Moreover, even if they were letting people in, I don't see why people would come on a big trip up the shaft to... get close to the surface.

Quote:
Whilyam wrote:
I can't name all the buildings in D'ni and elsewhere that look like they need supports, but don't have them. Also we only have Myst V's (innaccurate) account of geological stability to go off of. All D'ni areas, including the portion of the Cleft above ground, were portrayed as unstable. In all likelhood, this was a game mechanic designed to make the player feel like D'ni falling apart tied to the Tablet's captivity. Assuming it isn't, though, K'veer was also similarly unstable yet in Uru it isn't.


It's called the Python Earthquake file in Myst V. Me and others I know are working on it for Uru.
The supports make more sense in this area because the shaft, like a building, requires supports that are on the inside. Early engineering feats like some cathedrals that were build in the middle ages had to have supports on the outside. Supports for buildings are normally hidden within the building or made so that it looks more like part of the building than something that is holding it up. Hard to do that with a large, open shaft, as the inside is the very thing you are trying to hold open.

Except major sections of the GZ, Guild Hall, Library, K'Veer, and so forth do not require these sorts of supports. We accept this because one of the pieces of the D'ni culture was that they did impossible things with stone and architecture. Regardless, the shaft in Uru doesn't have these supports and isn't unstable. Same for K'veer.

Quote:
Whilyam wrote:
remnants from Shaft workers, Atrus, Gehn, Yeesha, DRC, etc. None of them opened pub there, I'm sure.

The journals in Uru itself clearly describe expedition teams going out and making new tunnels and areas.

There are no journals in Uru talking about the Shaft at all since all journals revolve around the Kings and the Shaft was started by the Guilds after Kerath's abdication. Also, any expedition teams would be exploring for something (I would assume minerals or other caverns to colonize) and would not be making pubs.

Quote:
You seem to think that once it was built, it was then ignored. That no one in the D'ni civilization would be even the slightest interest in a engineering feat as massive as that.
Why do people visit the Hoover Dam?

Because it does something. The Shaft is a giant, useless tube. It's purpose was to get D'ni to the surface. For one thing, this obviously didn't happen. For another, D'ni culture was, almost universally at the time, anti-offworlder/surface-dweller. You might get some D'ni in there who did not follow this, but it's clear the D'ni in general would.

Thinking like a D'ni: I don't want to visit a giant useless tube.
Thinking more like a D'ni: I don't want to visit a giant useless tube that gets me closer to those barbaric surface-dwellers.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Also, note that when there is a conflict - Uru is always canon.

Myst games are just that - games. Made from stories told by some other third party, by Cyan Worlds.

The canonical version of the Shaft (in uru) does not have those supports - thus, those supports are non-canon. =)

It really is that simple. If Cyan was to, tomorrow, release Descent in uru with the supports, then the supports would /become/ canon. But right now, Uru's version is canon, by virtue of being in Uru. =)

(Uru is /always/ canon. Myst Games are Games.)

EDIT: Also, the books are also non-canon, see "wingrovism"


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