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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:21 pm 
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I agree totally Robert, i would love just love to enter the world of URU thru the Volcano as did Atrus long ago. that has always been my dream vision and such a wondeful way to set the context of it all.

but as Mystdee said, whataver happens will be great with me too.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
So, everybody that starts a new game goes to the same Cleft and the GoG could hang out there.


I like the idea.
I wonder how the GoG can communicate with the new ppl. These new players do not have a functional KI yet. Or do I miss something?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:29 pm 
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From what I remember there was a chat in lower left corner before you get your KI.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:34 pm 
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veralun wrote:
Chogon wrote:
So, everybody that starts a new game goes to the same Cleft and the GoG could hang out there.
I like the idea.
I wonder how the GoG can communicate with the new ppl. These new players do not have a functional KI yet. Or do I miss something?

Well, the chat function is something that does not need a Ki; it existed in the Gametap MOUL even before you went to Gahreesen. So that is not a problem from my POV; the KI is needed to solve the city and to get data on others. I like the idea that each person gets the pillars page separately. How/where to get Yeesha's initial speech is the hard part, I think. You need to get introduced to the journey cloths and the Relto. One could put Yeesha's data in a journal that you read and delete the speech video (have audio of the speech overlay it as in EoA). The imager puzzle could be set solved, so all you need to do is punch the button, and the tree would be open and the windmill turning by default. The cleft journey cloths would make the pillars page appear on the pedestal in the tree for each individual. Thus each individual would have to walk around to the 7 cloths. so I think the problem is solvable both in mechanics and in story line.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:49 pm 
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You would also need some kind of internal flags that would stop you from getting the Island & Bridge from fire pit or even be able to see them. Also the birds page should be hidden at the start, another flag. There are still things that need to be worked out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
So, IMHO (in other words, not speaking as a Cyan employee), this is what I would do with MOULagain. New players start in the Cleft. It just makes more story sense. However, I would remove the safety restriction and make the Cleft a single instance, like the city. So, everybody that starts a new game goes to the same Cleft and the GoG could hang out there. Make completely solving the Cleft optional. Put the Relto book somewhere convenient and leave the Yeesha page inside the tree to unlock the other four pillars in your Relto.

Nonsense! I agree with making the cleft the starting point as it should be, but public? No way. Is Uru still a game of puzzles or not? The cleft was cleverly designed as a mechanism for introducing the player to the story and method of game play. Zandi provides all the assistance anyone needs. Why tamper with perfection? If they can't (or don't want to) make it through the cleft, then they're not going to enjoy anything else about Uru.

The GoG Bevin was a circus at times where spoilers could often be overheard in chat, and it was a magnet for griefers. Please, please don't let that be the first impression for newcomers to Uru.

If you must make it easier for people, then simply provide a link on the sign up page that leads to all the walkthroughs.

Chogon wrote:
Because of the GameTap environment that MOUL was now entering, we had to get new players "into" the game faster and meet other people. Hence, starting in your Relto and as a new player your neighborhood book took you to the Guild of Greeters Neighborhood.

Correction: only non-paying Visitors were directed to the GoG hood; all the paying customers were sent to new DRC hoods. The decision to direct all Visitors to the GoG happened about two-thirds of the way through the time online - about the time that things weren't looking so good and the pressure was on to bring in and keep new players. And, I gotta tell you that there was some resentment by the Greeters that the decision was made without their input. I'm sure if they'd been asked, they would been more than happy to help sell Uru to the Visitors. But, they weren't, so they weren't happy about it. So, maybe it's not a good idea to change the design of the game if the change depends on the participation of a specific group unless they're consulted first.

Edit: added additional comments.

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Last edited by Tai'lahr on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:49 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
CrisGer wrote:
I think the Cleft has not been converted to multiplayer

I can't remember the specifics but I do believe that we made the Cleft multiplayer safe when the game was changed to start in the Relto because you could go to your neighborhood and bring someone back to help you in the Cleft.

Ok, here was the non-story design considerations, as far as I remember them.
In the original UruLive, we wanted to have different levels of safety (as in being safe from being griefed or harrassed by others). From the Cleft, which was completely safe, to the neighborhood which was semi-safe (could be just selected friends) to completely unsafe in the city. The original intent of the Cleft was two-fold. Introduce you to the story and second was to have a safe place where you can learn the mechanics of the game.

When we restarted UruLive with Turner/GameTap, there were a number of focus group studies done. And the two biggest complaints (especially from people that were not familiar with Myst/Uru) that was discovered was 1) "Hey! If this is an MMOG! Where are all the people?" and 2) there was a large percentage of people who got "Lost in the desert" (as I had put it in the KI ;-) ), get frustrated and quit right there. Because of the GameTap environment that MOUL was now entering, we had to get new players "into" the game faster and meet other people. Hence, starting in your Relto and as a new player your neighborhood book took you to the Guild of Greeters Neighborhood.

So, IMHO (in other words, not speaking as a Cyan employee), this is what I would do with MOULagain. New players start in the Cleft. It just makes more story sense. However, I would remove the safety restriction and make the Cleft a single instance, like the city. So, everybody that starts a new game goes to the same Cleft and the GoG could hang out there. Make completely solving the Cleft optional. Put the Relto book somewhere convenient and leave the Yeesha page inside the tree to unlock the other four pillars in your Relto.
But again, this is just the world according to Chogon and of course, it is doubtful we'll have much time to make many changes.


Thanks,
Chogon


*wipes a tear away* ;)

JWPlatt wrote:
Tweek wrote:
it's the puzzle rigging and NPC interactions that would need reworking.

Yes, that's the challenge. How do you let new players meet in a public Cleft and still let them solve it themselves. How would it work if it were real life? Someone made a comment about MQO being a single-player game for multiplayer use. That was because of things like the TW bridges being valid only from the POV of the individual player. You folks came to accept the TW bridges. But I don't think your average Uru fan (or Cyan for that matter) will appreciate anything less than total realism. I'll have to go back and read some threads from Tweek and Alahmnat to see what they did with it, or even if their solutions were multiplayer.


Fortunately, I gathered up most of my ideas for changing Uru into one place. My thoughts on the Cleft can be found here: Uru Concepts - The Cleft

I also have the links for Alah's views there too.

Tai'lahr wrote:
Chogon wrote:
So, IMHO (in other words, not speaking as a Cyan employee), this is what I would do with MOULagain. New players start in the Cleft. It just makes more story sense. However, I would remove the safety restriction and make the Cleft a single instance, like the city. So, everybody that starts a new game goes to the same Cleft and the GoG could hang out there. Make completely solving the Cleft optional. Put the Relto book somewhere convenient and leave the Yeesha page inside the tree to unlock the other four pillars in your Relto.

Nonsense! I agree with making the cleft the starting point as it should be, but public? No way. Is Uru still a game of puzzles or not? The cleft was cleverly designed as a mechanism for introducing the player to the story and method of game play. Zandi provides all the assistance anyone needs. Why tamper with perfection? If they can't (or don't want to) make it through the cleft, then they're not going to enjoy anything else about Uru.

The GoG Bevin was a circus at times where spoilers could often be overheard in chat, and it was a magnet for griefers. Please, please don't let that be the first impression for newcomers to Uru.

If you must make it easier for people, then simply give them a link to all the walkthroughs on the sign up page.


It would be the logical choice, the masses are called to the cleft to begin a journey, one would expect to bump into others, plus it is an MMO, so same there. Uru isn't just a game of puzzles, that is a single aspect of it, it is also about exploration, story, environments and community, each aspect is as important as the rest in forming the structure of Uru. Whilst I agree the Cleft was a nicely designed section that introduces player to the gameplay mechanics, it does miss the potential of meeting up with possible friends that you can explore further. Zandi provides a lot of assistance, but apparently he doesn't provide enough, having an extra person or group there could be a benefit.

I do agree with you on the GoG Bevin being a circus at times, and whilst it is technically their aim to help new players I wouldn't really want them greeting at the cleft, there were spoilers and griefers yes and on several occasions the griefers were the greeters themselves which wouldn't be a good welcoming for new explorers, could be a better task suited to ResEngs if they ever returned. Failing that my other suggestion which I believe I mentioned on my Uru Concepts site was to have a second imager message from Laxman explaining things like the KI, Linking etc.


Or! Even better, lets bring back the DRC Liaisons.....what?...What?.....I'll get my coat...


Last edited by Tweek on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
I do agree with you on the GoG Bevin being a circus at times, and whilst it is technically their aim to help new players I wouldn't really want them greeting at the cleft, there were spoilers and griefers yes and on several occasions the griefers were the greeters themselves, could be a better task suited to ResEngs if they ever returned.

Now, that I could accept. The ResEngs were most adept at guiding players without spoiling them. I learned more from them than Greeter training. I doubt they can afford to pay for ResEngs to just hang out in the game the way they did in MOUL, though. Perhaps an alternative would be player-volunteers who have been screened/trained by Cyan? They wouldn't necessarily have to be ResEngs or Greeters; just ordinary explorers being IC ("Yeah, I've been to the cavern. Just came up to get some sunlight. Did you have a question?") :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:32 pm 
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KenS1 wrote:
You would also need some kind of internal flags that would stop you from getting the Island & Bridge from fire pit or even be able to see them. Also the birds page should be hidden at the start, another flag. There are still things that need to be worked out.

I don't see why they need to be hidden. It wasn't a problem when the sparklies were introduced. You got them, but without an island on which to display them, you saw nothing new. Clues about getting the island and the Relto should exist (see my journal idea above), but just collecting Yeesha pages does nothing except heighten the MYSTery :) :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:36 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
I do agree with you on the GoG Bevin being a circus at times, and whilst it is technically their aim to help new players I wouldn't really want them greeting at the cleft, there were spoilers and griefers yes and on several occasions the griefers were the greeters themselves which wouldn't be a good welcoming for new explorers, could be a better task suited to ResEngs if they ever returned.


Grieving was sometimes there. Special in situations like the announcement about the closing and around the moment that suddenly a lot of new ppl who did not had a clue what MOUL was (but did download the game because it was in the GameTap carousell and discovered it was not a FPS game) entered the game.
And I think that was not wrong. Sometimes ppl do need a place to vent. When it was done in a proper way (by taking those ppl seperate from the rest), there were no problems.
I must say (being a Greeter myself for a long time) the GoG did manage well with this.
I see MOULagain as different from MOUL in GameTap.
The GoG are capable enough to handle the situation. I must admit that some new Greeters had their own ideas about greeting, which were not always the best and did lead to chaos sometimes.

To say the Greeters should be replaced by ResEngs is something I disagree with.
That would be a smack in the face from those Greeters with the right intention.

I think the Greeters can do a great job in MOULagain


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:49 pm 
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the Greeters are wonderful and I think they would be a wonderful asset.

ResEngs are a great part of the process too, for they give life to the world of MOUL as well as help with orientation. I think it is feasible for ResEngs to return, either a single paid one or carefully selected and anonymous (in character without avatar identity) selected from the community to serve in an idential way and role .... they really do help and could help with tecnical things.

This dialog is a wonderful way to vet ideas and to exchange possiblites. Great to see.

The testing, pounding on things, checking walk sounds, triggers, links, that will be the housekeeping and the foundation of whatever comes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:16 pm 
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I wonder if some of this discussion about Greeters and ResEngs is maybe being "a bit previous" as we say here (don't know if that expression carries outside Scotland).

At this point we haven't really been told exactly what's going on with MOULagain, but I'm thinking it's a kind of "scratchpad" to pave the way for OS, maybe to test it as some bits get unpicked and stitched back together, so it may not really be Cyan's intent to have a big user base for this. I'm happy to be proved wrong though :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:27 pm 
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Mac_Fife wrote:
I wonder if some of this discussion about Greeters and ResEngs is maybe being "a bit previous" as we say here (don't know if that expression carries outside Scotland).

In the states, we say something similar: "a bit premature." Agreed. I think the idea of getting back into the cavern is bringing up memories of some unresolved issues from MOUL and maybe we're all just hoping for an opportunity to make it right this time. :wink:

Btw, I wasn't taking potshots at the Greeters (I was one), but at the set up. :)

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