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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:44 am 
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Paradox, I wrote this on another thread. This is the contribution I hope to make (and I hope other creative writers can make to the GoW)- the use of the written word to thoroughly describe an age before it goes to the artists and programmers to implement. Creative writers can really make a contribution in the beginning plans for an age.

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Writing, on my end, means using the written word to describe a land, an Age , that people would want to explore. Conceptualizing the world we want to see would have to come before the actual sketching, 3-D mapping, programming, etc, right?

Some day in the future, I would like to help write the story, the "pitch", the description for an artist's colony. An age just bursting with creative endeavors - with a dynamic art gallery for those Explorers gifted in the visual arts; a music conservatory for musical performers, a theater for thespians, and a writer's workshop for the creative writers, regardless of genre. Oh, and a comedy club.


I'll admit, the comedy club is a pipe dream - humor is my primary genre ;).

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:41 am 
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All that I said is that each Guild will have its own application process for members. Anyone can join, provided they go through the application process.


So, exactly who (since there are no official guild members yet) is going to make up these rules and admit members?

(I heard you thinking me me me)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:44 am 
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Admirable enthusiasm, Britcom, though it is ground already covered; if you take a look at some of the other GoW threads in this forum you will see extensive discussion on that subject and contributions by other people hoping to do the same thing as yourself.

But the fact simply remains that the Guilds do not yet exist (except for the GoG). Cyan has made it clear that picking a shirt only supports the concept of the Guild. Once the Guilds exist for real in game, then things may well be different. Right now there are just fan organisations- something which Cyan seems to have cautiously encouraged.

What is happening here is that some people- including some people who have been working on the concept of Age Building for a long time- are forming an unofficial Guild, with the hope it will become the official Guild later. That is a hope, not a certainty. The unofficial Guild has nothing to do with Cyan, so they can kick out whoever they like (because despite the omission from the thread title, it seems pretty certain that this code of conduct is for the unofficial Guild).

Of course, that swings both ways- being a private organisation also means it runs the risk of being irrelevant. And like many others I have serious issues with the code as presented.

As it stands I won't be joining the unoffical Guild because, quite frankly, it looks like a total mess. I'm just going to maintain an interest in the concept of age building, maybe find some like minded people to work on ideas with, and see where things go from here.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:52 pm 
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This is kind of a mess isn't it? We have folks who have worked for a long time in an unofficial way and now would like some official support; after all of their hard work, keeping URU alive and trying to keep it growing, they hope to be recognized as the official guild. That is certainly logical.

At the same time, they claim NOT to be the official guild, since there is no such guild yet. That is also logical.

I think the problem here is that we really do not know what Cyan intends. If they do really intend to allow any number of unofficial writer's guilds to form, and then to choose one of them as the "official" guild, then of course the race is on to see which group of collaborators can come up with the best structure. On the other hand, if Cyan merely means to pick certain people who already have been building ages and give them some recognition and support, they ought to tell us that.

The problem is simply that we don't know what Cyan intends, and in fact it may be that Cyan does not have a clear concept at this point either.

At any rate, I'm certain that there will always be groups that build fan ages, and we hope that the greatest of these can become part of Cyan's worlds so that we can see them all without having to download multiple game engines and so on. I can wear a black t-shirt to support that idea.

However, what I really want to do is be able to contribute to age building without having to negotiate a lot of politics. I do hope that however this comes out the "guild" of whatever sort never becomes exclusive.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:28 pm 
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Barbarra wrote:
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All that I said is that each Guild will have its own application process for members. Anyone can join, provided they go through the application process.


So, exactly who (since there are no official guild members yet) is going to make up these rules and admit members?

(I heard you thinking me me me)


That's why we're having this discussion and the various polls about leadership. At this point, no one has any reason to kick anyone out of the Guild, so a position of authority can be determined.

As much as it would seem that I am trying to "lead" the guild, I do not want to have any form of control once the basics are established. If I were to say otherwise in the future, you are given permission to remove any authority that I might have and instate a suitable replacement. (You referring to the community at large).

I think the current goal is something like this:
1. You join the forum provided that you agree to some basic conduct rules (what we're discussing here)
2. General discussions are held on the forums to determine how projects will work, what system of authority will be in place, etc.
3. The ideas from the discussions are enacted and Age Building begins :D

It looks like most people are against the idea of such a Code of Conduct upon joining, so the agreement to join will probably be the usual forum legal stuff (you accept that what you post is visible on the internet, you agree not to post obscene materials, etc..) and also a provision that you must abide by Cyan's Code of Conduct and Terms of Service.

Again, none of this will be enacted without discussion and input from the community. Does this sound reasonable?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:11 am 
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Paradox wrote:
As much as it would seem that I am trying to "lead" the guild, I do not want to have any form of control once the basics are established.


Bullcrap. Sheer bullcrap...

Now wait! I don't mean that Paradox is power-hungry or that he's lying. Totally the opposite. In fact, I believe him completely at face value when he says what he says.

But... Paradox... you're the kind of person that should be leading the guild, right?!?

I understand you don't want the reputation of taking it for yourself in these uncertain times, and maybe you really don't want to be a part of the Guild leadership, but Jesus, someone has to do it, and you seem like a fine candidate, and you've already shown the commitment and interest. Everyone trusts you (even if we don't always agree with you), and you've proven that you won't go mad with power (at least not yet :jk: :wink:)...

I'm sorry, but I am getting sick and tired of everyone talking about how this is going to work, and doing the things that leaders do, and still insisting that they're not trying to lead. We're all so afraid of elitism and jumping the gun that we end up just running in circles doing nothing! Everyone is tip-towing around the concept of forming leadership and I'm sick of it.

What happens when Cyan launches the official Guild system and gives us no more guidance than we're getting right now?

Listen, we can have regular leadership elections after this thing starts, so there's no fear of a dynasty or dictatorship, but christ man, someone--someone with credentials and respect--has to get it started.

I don't mean to pile this all on you Paradox... this goes for other recognized figures in the Age Bulding community, like Robert the Rebuilder and Tiran, too (there may be others I'm missing, apologies)

I mean, this constant "we're not trying to take power" thing is going too far, and in my opinion is hurting our chances of making this work.

Someone, try to take power already! Otherwise we're just wasting time. Those not qualified to do it will be stopped by the community. Those who are qualified, like some I can think of, will be embraced, and we can finally make progress.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:59 pm 
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The Noble Robot wrote:
Someone, try to take power already! Otherwise we're just wasting time.

Seems like we have a period of a scant couple-few weeks before the next episode, at which point we'll know to what extent Cyan / DRC is going to assist with, intervene in or declare the rules for our Guilds. I kinda LIKE the discussions that are going on here during this period, and find that we as a group are in fact evolving our collective opinions on how we might one day operate as more and more of us have the opportunity to weigh in on these forums. A couple weeks is really very little time in the grand scheme of things - especially if people intend to live with the results of those couple weeks forever.

As much as I'm looking forward to having a functional Guild eventually, I'm frankly just not that antsy about our supposed need to have one right at this very moment!

Sure, some have advocated the notion that Cyan is watching to see how the Guilds develop during this period, and that they'll react accordingly, rewarding early (speculative) "hard work" - but that's just as much guesswork as everything else in this early nebulous stage. Really, we know nothing: even those that point to Cyan's past player-relations track record cannot state that this will be their future style in regard to official Guilds.

If the next episode comes and goes without our learning anything more about the ways Cyan envisions Guilds will tie into the game, then okay - we know that we're completely on our own over the indeterminate "hiatus". That'll be the time to get busy. Until then, there are a lot of productive things we can do, and having these discussions is one of them!


See my following post, written before this one.


Last edited by Emor D'ni Lap on Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:04 pm 
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So far, I’ve heard a lot of opinions on how the structure of the (unofficial) Guild of Writers should be determined.

I’ve heard some state that because they felt that a predominant opinion emerged in a certain meeting, attended by some percentage of interested parties, then that is therefore the position of the (u)GoW as a whole.

I also see that policy is seemingly being established through results of polls in these forums.

In the case of meetings, policy cannot be made because there is not a full body of members in attendance at these meetings: potentially concerned members may not be aware of the meeting, or may be unable to attend. And in the cases I’ve seen, these were individuals’ opinions of what transpired at a given meeting, not actual handcount votes.

In the case of polls, taking this approach assumes that all players interested in the future of the Guild are aware of the polls. It even assumes that they are aware of, registered on, and active in these particular forums. And online polls in this forum don’t take into account the fact that anybody, player or not, can register on these forums multiple times, and can thereby vote multiple times, easily skewing any vote count.

If some group wants to form an Unofficial Guild of Writers based on these flawed and undemocratic procedures, that’s fine for those that are happy with the results. But I’d hate to see such a haphazardly-constructed group morph into an Official Guild at a later date, using the same rules and protocol established by this unofficial group.

I know it’s impossible to do much else than what’s currently being done here during this period where we have no feedback at all from Cyan / DRC regarding their intentions for the Guilds. And I know it’s impossible to democratically establish group rules when those that will be members of the group haven’t really coalesced yet (again, partly due to lack of feedback from Cyan / DRC, I feel). I know that the current Unofficial group has their heart in the right place, and is doing what they can with what is available.

I also know it’s going to be difficult to establish a means of voting such that Guild policies can be established using a one member / one vote procedure – but that’s the only way we can be certain that our Guild’s going to be truly democratically formed. ***

When and if the rules of the game do become clear, and when the Guild’s potential membership base is gathered, then that will be the time for that full membership to have the right to determine the Official Guild’s structure and policies, from scratch, from the ground up, and not based on the structure or policies that some have formed during this well-intentioned but awkward and unofficial period.



***(Cyan, having the registered database of the main log-in avvies, could help by facilitating a means of accurate voting without having to distribute that database to the Guild)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:12 pm 
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As much as I'm looking forward to having a functional Guild eventually, I'm frankly just not that antsy about our supposed need to have one right at this very moment!


I think you're right in a way. There's no rush to do this, and the discussions are good. I also think that no one is a fault, and everyone is trying to do their best.

My problem is this hideous limbo space we've put ourselves in by talking and planning and (for some) leading, but also specifically denying that it means anything; calling everything "preliminary" and so forth, stating how we "don't want power," and answering questions via polls or meetings or whatever, but then debating them over again because no one has or seeks the athority to declare the question "officially" answered.

So discussion is good, but let's resolve to either:

1. Discuss the guilds, but stop holding polls on specifics or begin to organize if we intend to wait for Cyan.

OR...

2. Let's organize, and commit to it already!

If we choose option 1, fine, I think that might solve a lot of the fear people have when they hear an idea they don't like. Thus, discussions will be freer and less acrimonious.

And if we choose option 2, fine as well, but we need those who have stepped up and put in the time to become central and trusted figures amongst the Guild supporters to commit publicly to lead us, or to stop leading.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:03 am 
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I agree whole heartedly with Noble Robot- It seems most of these new pre guild groups are just continuing to rehash the same code of conduct and mission statement issues no matter which guild you look at. And it never fails someone new to the conversation rushes in to bring back up things that have been discussed over and over again, as soon as it quiets down a little bit.

The leaders "have" already appeared. They are working right now in front of our eyes. They have held meeting, polls, discussions, posted forum threads and organized. What Cyan has planned may just give you more specifics but you already have plans.... I have not found one good leader, who wanted to take over anything, was not willing to patiently discuss and re-discuss everything will all of those showing an interest- even with the heated debates.

As I have said on other post- this may be an amusing way for some to occupy the time between episodes but it is not productive. All it is really doing is causing tension and short tempers with those who were not willing or able to join the conversation from the beginning.

You can simply refer your new inquiries to the stacks of forum threads and let them read all of the things they have missed. No matter what- there will always be new explorers- next week or next year that may think they can come in and tell you where you were wrong and, well- you can still tell them to go read the mountain of forum posts you relied on to make your decisions. I think most of you have been very generous, patient and thoughtful while planning your dream. And I admire your hard work and spirit!

Since I am not as talented as many of you participating in the guild formation - I just want reassured that you won't leave me in the dust and have the patience to teach me some of your skills so I can have fun too!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:35 pm 
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The Guild of Writers is somewhat different from the other guilds, as what we do and how will depend so heavily on what tools (if any) Cyan provides, what plot guidelines or character guidlines they provide, how integrated our efforts will be with Cyans' efforts, and so on.

Certainly we can all agree to respect copyrights and not stick viruses in our ages, but that is kind of a given.

The point is that we really don't know enough to know whether the official guild will just be one among many fan clubs or whether we will be working with Cyan tools according to Cyan guidelines.

I just don't want to see a lot of work going into things that could well be obsolete or moot in a couple of weeks.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:47 pm 
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I understand that - but we now have a better idea of who is interested in contributing, what they want to do and a good idea of how well everyone can work together. When Cyan finally gives you a better idea of what will be expected of each guild - the preliminary gathering of interested people will have already started and begun to bond... Almost half the battle.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:37 pm 
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I have been working up ideas for stuff to post that is Writers business, which doesn't have to wait on Cyan. (By "Writers business", I mean "progress towards making Ages for UL.")

I've been holding off, because I'm waiting for a consensus on a Writers forum. (Yes, I *could* post the stuff here -- but I'd like to help get the new forum off the ground, once it opens.)

It has been pointed out to me that the "New Home" poll ( http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12717 ) runs until this Friday. I'm hoping that when that finishes, the folks who have been working on the site will feel free to move forward.

Consider this post to be encouragement and a promise of... stuff. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:04 am 
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Why there's always people who wants to organize others, make rules and control how things should be ????? It's only a game an we are here to have fun.

Personnally I pay my subscription to Gametap/Cyan not to other players. So it's Cyan taht should write down all the guidelines.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:14 am 
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misterzen wrote:
Why there's always people who wants to organize others, make rules and control how things should be ????? It's only a game an we are here to have fun.

Personnally I pay my subscription to Gametap/Cyan not to other players. So it's Cyan taht should write down all the guidelines.


We have guidelines from Cyan, written back when fan-Ages were first released.

http://www.uruobsession.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=110&t=22514


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