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 Post subject: Uru is ...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Uru is NOT Second Life or There or any number of other alternate reality reality games ... (you heard me!)

Please consider your idea/suggestion etc in relation to these types of games before posting.

Uru does not need many of the features/ideas from these games.

If you are going to be suggesting we add a feature from these games, please go play Second life or There, as the feature you will be suggesting is a core feature of that game.

Second Life || There != Uru

This has been a public service announcement for the sake of sanity!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:51 pm 
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I think it would be possible to bring some ideas from other worlds, but not all of them have to be implemented ;) it's all a matter of finding what is best for URU. Not all ideas will work, but we'll never know which ones will unless we give some of them a try.

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Last edited by Jamey on Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Uru is ...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:51 pm 
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DarK wrote:
Second Life || There != Uru

Has this notation really made it into popular culture?

Much of the intended audience might not have ever taken programming courses.

;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:14 pm 
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Do they understand maths ?
Second Life =/= Uru =/= There

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Fine, if Uru doesn't need any of the ideas or experience I may have learned from SL, then I'll just stay in SL. /wavebye

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:39 pm 
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It needs resurrection in its own right first. It's too soon to be applying lessons learned from other games when there hasn't been time to apply lessons learned from itself.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:04 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
It needs resurrection in its own right first. It's too soon to be applying lessons learned from other games when there hasn't been time to apply lessons learned from itself.


Nothing to add so :yeahthat: .


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:25 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:34 am 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
Fine, if Uru doesn't need any of the ideas or experience I may have learned from SL, then I'll just stay in SL. /wavebye

Now now, well well, tsk tsk, Tai'lar! Wavebye no less? Don't make idle threats, girl, you know you can't leave... like almost all of us :lol:

Errr, DarK, what prompted you to post that? There has been so much blah blah gone on that I can't possibly keep up with all the suggestions, demands, tips, ideas and finished moderations anymore... :?


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 Post subject: Re: Uru is ...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:20 am 
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Rusty Russell: This is basically the IC/OOC debate in another format. We've already seen this one through, so there's no reason it can't be debated and buried now :)

DarK:

I have no problem with people putting up an OOC-oriented Sadville-style* Uru server. There will obviously be servers that are Journey- and Gameplay-oriented, but that content only stretches so long for most players. There's no reason anti-SL players should force other people into their preferred mode of gameplay (which, you must admit, seems to be IC) that trumps the possibilities for happiness and individualism amongst all players. It would be nice to have choices.

If the old "IC/OOC" debate fragments the community along these lines with people picking only servers of their choice, attempting to force the outcome one way will merely disenfranchise many players. I will gladly go wherever the happenings are (assuming the ping and community is good and the coin not too large) and would like to join all servers for visits.

I would be against anything such as a server browser tag stating that a server is IC or OOC; but if a server is IC or OOC only they can specify this in their server introduction (MOTD and/or TOS), but I would hate to see prejudice against one style of play or the other codified in the UI design.

Certainly you can't rally the whole community against OOC, so don't even bother trying.

DarK wrote:
Second Life || There != Uru[/url]
I thought I knew that != was equivalent to "not equal to," but what about the pipe? Does that change it from strictly being "Second Life =/= Uru =/= There" ?

This has been a public service announcement for the sake of sanity!


*Sadville is what El Reg persists in calling Second Life. I haven't played SL but it's obvious that this is a rather jaundiced view of the community that I've read about in the official American Bar Association journal as being used for useful but informal meetings of professionals.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:34 am 
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You'll need to be more specific.. I agree that some ideas from SL and There and say WoW won't apply and shouldn't be.

I'll also say that some of them SHOULD.

WE can't go around forever saying "This isn't one of those games, therefore the KI can't be customizable, because they do it!". The reason they allow a customizable interface is because people will tweak it to how it works best.. and because even more the companies did what worked, and kept doing it. Cyan lacked the staff to overhaul the interface midstream as they were fixing the rest of the engine.. heck, I think they should have kept going with redesign from the start. The KI as it was at MOUL incarnation was simplistic, elegant, had a nice look, and was approaching frustration levels of inadequacy for the game. I'm sorry but a bad interface is NOT a "design feature".
And yet there's such resistance to the idea.. I suggested we have windowed chat pieces that moreso can be moved and resized, with variable transparency. Therefore if you for some bizarre reason wanted KI Classic, you could turn transparency to full and keep them there. Yet no, apparently that wasn't an option. And yet me, I can't stand it as is.. I couldn't scroll the list, there was no way to keep multiple groups and select quickly, chat didn't filter, chat had no backing so in bright ages you had to watch the ground to read, there was no copy/paste... I could keep going.


Yet, we've played games where chat is far less important and is secondary to the combat.. but why is it they have far better chat interfaces? Why CAN'T we borrow design inspirations like tabs and windows and xml/python to extend the interface at user-end? As I said there's a REASON they do it.


And that's just interface. Are you saying user content is bad because of what SL is like? What about other games that let you? Heck, what about other areas in SL? (because if I don't say that someone will try to ram at me that "It's not all like that!" even though I know).



There's a difference between taking things lock stock and barrel and porting them without modification.. and properly taking inspiration from successes and building on that. Those other games have been dealing with user content for a lot longer than we have... it's only fair to look at what they did, and take what works. That's how knowledge is gained and added, after all.

In other words, I'm all FOR adding features from SL, There, WoW, CoH, GW, RS, etc etc etc. ASSUMING they fit, make sense.. and work. If we ignore the stuff they have because "they're not Uru" then we might as well never change a thing about it, in case we also get something Not Uru. Have fun with your offline game, we'll meanwhile be playing something better than before.

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 Post subject: Re: Uru is ...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:57 am 
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DarK wrote:
Uru is NOT Second Life or There or any number of other alternate reality reality games ... (you heard me!)

Please consider your idea/suggestion etc in relation to these types of games before posting.

Uru does not need many of the features/ideas from these games.

If you are going to be suggesting we add a feature from these games, please go play Second life or There, as the feature you will be suggesting is a core feature of that game.

Second Life || There != Uru

This has been a public service announcement for the sake of sanity!

This is not yours to decide unless you start up your own shard or become part of the administration of a shard. This community will develop based on what the community likes in general. This sort of passive-aggressive bullying will not change that and will in fact hurt the form of Uru you and I enjoy the most. So I'll say it frankly: Enough. Stop acting like your opinion is the only one that matters. You do not represent me or any of the other people on this board or in this community. While there are parts of Second Life,etc. I do not like, their implementation will be based on how popular that implementation is and not my preferences. I know there are many people who like a wide variety of things about Uru and your post hurts that.

So I say to those who are rightfully-offended by DarK's post: Ignore it. The version of Uru you settle in can and likely will be whatever you want.

Please consider your idea/suggestion etc in relation to the fact that you are a human being and that you have as much a right to be here as anyone else.

Uru does need many of the features/ideas from your suggestions.

If you are going to be suggesting we add a feature from other games, please stay here and debate the idea, and the feature you will be suggesting might become a feature of this game.

Now is not the time to be alienating people, DarK. Now is the time to understand that people have different ways of enjoying Uru. You will have an area where you can enjoy Uru (likely the Guild area) and other people will have their areas and they'll almost certainly come to the shard you go to. But not if you drive them away. You will kill Uru through your intolerance.

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 Post subject: Re: Uru is ...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:21 am 
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Wha-bam! Smack laideth downnnn.

But I'm not sure everybody's clear on one point...

"The community" is often mentioned as a monolith, even when we're talking about the benefits of pluralism (in Whilyam's post). I think that if the community splits along IC/OOC type lines (or whatever other split), that's really unavoidable anyway.

Just to stir the pot, a blog post I linked earlier in the UI developments thread without reading beforehand, this one, had some very good comments about how Uru stacks up vis-a-vis Second Life. A bit too anarchist, and I can say that with a straight face, with me putting the boundary at being able to create a dragon character. But everything up to that point the guy says I more or less agree with. (Guess I'll spin this off into a new topic.)


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 Post subject: Re: Uru is ...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Ed Oscuro wrote:
"The community" is often mentioned as a monolith, even when we're talking about the benefits of pluralism (in Whilyam's post). I think that if the community splits along IC/OOC type lines (or whatever other split), that's really unavoidable anyway.

True, however I think that split is NOT as severe as some make it out to be. People have preferences, but I also know many people who don't like IC, but didn't go out of their way to avoid it. They tolerated it and still had some fun. I think you'll see an IC and an OOC shard (I'd really love them to be named that or similar to avoid arguments between "cultures" here in Uru, but that's another thing) and I think you'll see a good percentage of people from each bleeding through into the other. Of course on both sides there are people who will never leave their shard/area, but there are OOC people who enjoy some IC sometimes and there are IC people who want to relax and enjoy some OOC fun. The problem is when we think of it as an all-or-nothing issue. Those days are over with, hopefully for good. An IC fan's enjoyment is no longer linked to the disappointment of an OOC fan. When the fences are easy to see, no one smacks into one unintentionally. But we must put a gate on that fence so people can feel welcome.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:12 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
This is not yours to decide unless you start up your own shard or become part of the administration of a shard.


Sorry what?! I was planning to be running shards, writing shards, and playing the shards. Come heaven and high water I was here to make as many contributions as I could to Uru


Whilyam wrote:
This community will develop based on what the community likes in general. This sort of passive-aggressive bullying will not change that and will in fact hurt the form of Uru you and I enjoy the most. So I'll say it frankly: Enough. Stop acting like your opinion is the only one that matters.


My opinion does matter though, and to me it is my only opinion, and I now take this stance because everyone else around here does, why should I be any different?

My only difference is that I state what I mean, instead of writing long essays that don’t actually mean anything, I am sick to death of reading mountains of drivel on a topic, when 3 lines would have done it.

I could condense the last few posts down to a few lines saying why that person doesn’t agree with the OP

Anyway back to the point, I was stating ... if we turn this game into second life, I might have as well gone and played second life.

Whilyam wrote:
You do not represent me or any of the other people on this board or in this community.


I believed that all I did was state fact, and make a request. If people can't see that I posted, perhaps we should take the internet away from them from fear of them injuring themselves?!

Whilyam wrote:
While there are parts of Second Life,etc. I do not like, their implementation will be based on how popular that implementation is and not my preferences.


Erm ... soooo ?! What exactly are you saying here?

There are parts to Second Life you don't like? You then seem to jump somewhere else about implementation will be based on how popular implementation is and that it’s not your preferences?

Eh!?

Whilyam wrote:
I know there are many people who like a wide variety of things about Uru and your post hurts that


Erm no it supports Uru. If I play music from Uru loudly, and you play music from second life louder what is going to be noticed more, Uru's music or Second Life's?

Whilyam wrote:
So I say to those who are rightfully-offended by DarK's post: Ignore it.


Please do ... I rather be ignored and shown to be right, than paid attention to and be proven wrong.

Whilyam wrote:
The version of Uru you settle in can and likely will be whatever you want.


But then you won't be playing Uru. I head into "Your Uru" and ask to explore an age, the reply I get would probably along the lines of "Age what’s that, but hey you can decorate things in your home grid, try out this colour on your garage! Or if you move the sofa in front of the house, you get a free banjo"

Whilyam wrote:
Please consider your idea/suggestion etc in relation to the fact that you are a human being and that you have as much a right to be here as anyone else.


And please consider that I have as much right to state facts and request that people don't walk on my lawn as well.

Whilyam wrote:
Uru does need many of the features/ideas from your suggestions.


What suggestions?! That uru doesn't need things for second life; please make your mind up.

Whilyam wrote:
If you are going to be suggesting we add a feature from other games, please stay here and debate the idea, and the feature you will be suggesting might become a feature of this game.


All I want is a control procedure, some community officially stamped “cyan style” content, where I don’t have to shell out, collect items, or be in a special clique of friends to get access.

I don't want much here but to retain Uru and carefully add to it in a respected fashion

Whilyam wrote:
Now is not the time to be alienating people, DarK. Now is the time to understand that people have different ways of enjoying Uru.


No the time now is to stop walking around on egg shells, put all the cards on the table and be counted. Uru is full of non-committed people who are always willing to add a suggestion or twenty, and then complain about it when it doesn't happen; many people seem to enjoy that somehow?


Whilyam wrote:
You will have an area where you can enjoy Uru (likely the Guild area)


Unlikely, Guilds are hyped cliques that you only get to take part in if "you have been there since the beginning", or have something they want.

I worked on things for UU, People took it from me and claimed it as their own work because they changed a line or two, and yes I am quite bitter about the whole thing.

Whilyam wrote:
But not if you drive them away. You will kill Uru through your intolerance.


I will kill my Uru experience though my own actions thanks very much.

To be honest, it’s really getting to the stage where I can't be bothered any more. I am guessing I will have to see a vast improvement in co-operation, the ability for people to communicate things correctly and for a lot of people to get their heads out of their backsides to understand that they are not the only people in the world and that it doesn't revolve around them.

Pfft another 30 minutes wasted...


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