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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:35 pm 
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aloys wrote:
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In UU you could choose between either downloading all ages on launch or downloading them as you linked there for the first time.
That's essentially what we need: a non-automatic download option. People get to choose what they download or not, this way they are responsible for the files on their HD.
Also we could need a way

Finally a simple way (read: not manual) to uninstall & delete Ages would be good. Currently we have various tools to disable Ages but not to actually delete them.


Are you talking about perhaps an in-game interface that adds and remove ages from the options menu in-game, or something like an external application?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:46 pm 
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Maybe something like "Delete Book"
Choise pops up: "Do You Just Wish to Reset Age" or "Get Rid Of All Evidence Including Files"
Just a thought :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Hard disk space is not the only issue. I tend to agree as time passes MOUL does not look that big and storage space seems less of an issue.

External drives are getting cheap. I saw a 1/2 terra-byte for US$120. That means a 2 gig game uses 0.4% of the disk or about $0.48 of it. But USB connections are slow.

Hard drives are getting cheaper. Getting kids to talk parents into buying them and installing them and those using older computers... this is asking a lot. If we want new people in game then it seems like another obstacle.

No one brought up the cost of downloading all this data. (bandwidth costs) I have a hard time believing Cyan is going to pay for everyone to download 1 or 2 gigs of game. Plus is there is a 'delete' option, may be multiple downloads. That cost will likely be off loaded to the server operators (meaning us the fans).

If some of the changes people want are added there is more stuff to upload and download.

Adding a download CHANGES only feature would be a big help. Whatever is done, data compression and minimizing data transfer will remain real issues.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:31 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
Adding a download CHANGES only feature would be a big help. Whatever is done, data compression and minimizing data transfer will remain real issues.


As previously mentioned, ages are only updated when there are changes. This minimises data transfer.

If you mean sending diffs rather than re-downloading the age, the question becomes "How significant are the changes?" If it's something that can be stored in a diff easily, then I see that as feasable, yes. But an overhaul of textures would be significant in size, and it would be as efficient to send the new textures in their entirety, rather than calculating a diff against the textures file, sending the diff, and applying the diff.

Also, using diffs can lead to issues with frequently-updated data. If someone joins the game after several revisions of changes, the client will have to download the whole age in it's entirety at it's original state, followed by all the diff sets applied to that age in order, and apply them, making the download time longer.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:49 am 
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If hard drive space is an issue for you, you REALLY don't want to play MO:UL very much. I don't know why you're even in this discussion. What's 10-20 GB in 2009? They make 64GB flash keys now, for heaven's sake! How can space possibly be an issue?

If your argument is that you have an old, old laptop that can just barely play MO:UL, and it doesn't have much hard drive space, how incredibly selfish is it to want to hold back the entire MO:UL project for your pathetic ancient machine? And if you don't want to upgrade to something that can play a semi-modern game adequately, fine, buy a $20 flash key.

If you're out of space on a desktop, you have no one to blame but yourself. Hard drives are so ridiculously cheap that there is no excuse at all for you to run out of hard drive space. Ever. For anything. Including uncompressed HD video processing, much less a game.

And in all cases, you can fix the problem with a $20 flash key. 16GB keys are cheap, fast, and reliable, and they'll go driver-free right into your USB port for extra storage.

Seriously people, this is not the kind of issue to even think about, with all the other challenges we're going to have. Let the Ages stack up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:30 pm 
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I agree, this is a non-issue. We have far greater challenges than age files. The biggest problem will be too few Ages, not too many.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:15 pm 
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The bandwidth issue was already addressed in another thread.

As far as game file size goes… if you want to visit an age, you'll have to download/store it anyway. If it wasn't a problem with MO:UL, then it won't be a problem now either.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Anaerin wrote:
Nalates wrote:
Adding a download CHANGES only feature would be a big help. Whatever is done, data compression and minimizing data transfer will remain real issues.


As previously mentioned, ages are only updated when there are changes. This minimises data transfer.

If you mean sending diffs rather than re-downloading the age, the question becomes "How significant are the changes?" If it's something that can be stored in a diff easily, then I see that as feasable, yes. But an overhaul of textures would be significant in size, and it would be as efficient to send the new textures in their entirety, rather than calculating a diff against the textures file, sending the diff, and applying the diff.

Also, using diffs can lead to issues with frequently-updated data. If someone joins the game after several revisions of changes, the client will have to download the whole age in it's entirety at it's original state, followed by all the diff sets applied to that age in order, and apply them, making the download time longer.


The diffs wouldn't have to be actually "diffs". They could be separate prp files that are redirected to during asset loading if they have the same file that's indexed in the original prp.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:56 pm 
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In addition to the "download age upon link" mechanic, I'd like to see something like a dialog pop up when you link to an age you don't have downloaded:

"This age is not yet downloaded to your computer. Age size: (size) Approximate download time: (time). Would you like to download the age now?
Yes/No(cancel link)/Cancel link but download in background"

That way you won't get stuck at the linking screen when you accidentally clicked on that 100M beginner age :P

A way to delete/manage ages you have downloaded would also be very nice.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Diffs are the best idea.

I don't want to have to just add areas to my ages. I want to be able to change the prps.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:52 pm 
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"This age is not yet downloaded to your computer. Age size: (size) Approximate download time: (time). Would you like to download the age now?
Yes/No(cancel link)/Cancel link but download in background"
If you do that from the nexus, won't that break the immersiveness?

Yes you can, but would you want to?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:44 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Quote:
"This age is not yet downloaded to your computer. Age size: (size) Approximate download time: (time). Would you like to download the age now?
Yes/No(cancel link)/Cancel link but download in background"
If you do that from the nexus, won't that break the immersiveness?

Yes you can, but would you want to?


I was thinking more of having it occur at the UruExplorer GUI level -- a dialog like the "Are you sure you want to quit Uru" dialog or something like the character customization screen. It would be obvious that this is an OOC operation.

I think having the game suddenly stop at a blank loading screen to download potentially tens or hundreds of megabytes of material is unacceptable, and is more jarring to immersiveness and -- more importantly -- fun than an in-game download manager popping up. Giving players a choice and having some sort of resumable background downloading is necessary, especially for those of us with slower/spotty connections.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:13 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Quote:
"This age is not yet downloaded to your computer. Age size: (size) Approximate download time: (time). Would you like to download the age now?
Yes/No(cancel link)/Cancel link but download in background"
If you do that from the nexus, won't that break the immersiveness?

Yes you can, but would you want to?


The Nexus is already in such a mess in terms of OOC and IC, cannon and non cannon.

Cyan has to have had reasons for this ....

Firstly Do we really need to fix it? ... Second, if we don't fix it, its a good place for a age management interface.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Re: Immersion

Immersion will have to be broken in some ways. That's simply inevitable. While we're crafting ideas, we just need to be able to adequately justify where that happens.

For example, in MOUL, clicking the reset tab on a book in the bookshelf popped up a confirmation dialog that shattered the 4th wall. It had to be that way; it was trying to be certain a person did not throw away their progress by accident, and so it slapped the player in the face with a wet fish that said, "Hey! This is a game! You're about to delete your progress! Are you sure?"

Chogon's comments about how MORE was originally going to work highlighted a similar situation - MORE (in concept) was going to display a pop-up any time a player clicked on a book that would link them to a server outside of Cyan's control. That way players would be able to decide if they wanted to stay within Cyan's safe and comfortable boundaries, or venture into the wild and woolly unknown.

Side note: I'm working on refining my proposal on how to solve the IC/OOC issue in Nexus, and the overall instancing mess, over at OpenUru. Hope to post that by month's end.

Re: Disk Space

Back to the original question - how to manage all the space held by Ages - one good approach would be to have Uru automatically (or perhaps by preference) compress Ages that have not been accessed in a while. These Ages would have to be decompressed to access them again, but this would take less time than downloading and in the meantime, the Ages wouldn't take up so much space.

I am not certain if there is a way for Uru to know how many different Ages share an identical resource; if this is missing, that would need to be implemented so that Uru could intelligently determine what it can compress and what it should leave alone. Most certainly, the sound files are a big area that needs improvement here - by design, MOUL downloads compressed sound files (.ogg format) and then decompresses them, and keeps both copies on the drive all the time. This approach needs to be reworked.

I think this approach would solve concerns as much as reasonably possible. At some point, the burden to provide adequate space for Ages must fall upon the player. Somewhere, there will be a lowest common denominator - a minimum system requirements specification - and for Uru, that is going to scale with the number of Ages added.

Side note: The above proposal doesn't mean we shouldn't also still work on optimizing bandwidth use for the delivery of data to a player's computer. And while BitTorrent and other distributed methods are Nifty(tm), they don't address that players in some countries have metered internet use, and/or have bandwidth caps. Downloaded data needs to be compressed as tightly as possible for distribution. I think MOUL already did that for Ages... but I had the impression every time that I logged into MOUL that some of the information it was downloading couldn't possibly be compressed, because it took far too long for me just to get to Relto.

More trouble

Just to throw a wrench into things, here's a somewhat related question: "What was Cyan's plan (if they had one) for when the Relto bookshelf(/shelves) becomes full?" 8) We've been accustomed to each book having its own unique place on the shelf. With the exception of the shelf reshuffle from UU to MOUL, we always knew where to reach for our Neighborhood book, or our Kadish book. And the shelf has little barriers to segregate related books. So, giving players an "Uru Library Manager"-like ability to choose which books appear in which slots seems like an unlikely solution; it could generate confusion and would definitely make giving help to another player more difficult (no more instructions like "You want to pick the third book from the left, top row").

A little voice in my head says, "I think Cyan figured they'd solve that problem when it actually became a problem." We're a lot closer to the problem now, though. With MOUL content plus all of the fan Ages available now, we already exceed the number of open positions on the left shelf. So, I'm going to disagree with Whilyam's assertion that we're more likely to have a problem with too few Ages.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:22 pm 
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Perhaps the "overflow Ages" will only be available via Nexus?

Just a thought.

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