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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:15 pm 
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@Nalates: You bill yourself as somewhat of an expert on gaming devlopment, but, I notice you have not yourself heard of the example I mentioned. Duke Nukem Forever is widely billed as a first-class example of money wasting and time wasting developement. They switched engines several times, among other things. Time spent, and money spent is not always spent wisely. Infact, these chaps have had a lawsuit against them, regarding their "uses" of resources.

Tweek has indeed mentioned 6 years of story, which I've followed quite happily. I'm fairly familar with at least a couple of examples of what Tweek might consider a "decent age" since he himself has released a few of his own. And, infact, the standards of his own ages are what I measure mine up to. His is entirely original, mine, use a preexisting texture library. I do model some of my own things, however, my own first age will not have many original models.

I'm not avoiding anything, actually. The '03 released ages took time and effort to produce. I admit that, but, that was never the point of the discussion. I specifically refer to the Ages released during the full year of MOUL. For the content released during MOUL, there is a rather disappointing lack of content. I don't claim to know where the time went, but, a lot of it would've been rather simple to create for the level of creativity we commonly attribute to Cyan Worlds.

May I also note, the big budget games in the modern industry either contain much more content, usually measured in hours to complete said content. For example: Guild Wars: I have been playing Guild Wars since 2005, I am still yet to complete everything, and there is masses of content I have never even /seen/ let alone able to complete on auto-pilot, which I can now mostly do with Uru. Sure, you may say Uru's been out since '03, but, I first played Uru in '06. First linking in during the D'mala period. And, I'm pretty sure Guild Wars did not take as long, nor did cost as much to produce, as it has taken to produce Uru.

And, yes, I have created a very near Cyan Quality Age, using the same techniques as I have illustrated Cyan having created, for example, Kirel, or the Guild Pubs. I am still working on it, but, at present, it is an exporable area, with plans for expansion. Very small, but, I still hold to my statement. If I, admittedly, not the most skilled content creator, can dabble in a new engine I have no experience in, and create what I have from the pre-existing content Cyan had at their fingertips, I see no reason why the famed Cyan Worlds creative team could not have done better.

Most of those threads do not deal with the methods I'm using, especially considering the convictions the GoMa had in the past. I use Cyan textures, and alter their models. Regardless of what you may think of this ethically, it does put me in a position to know how long it would've taken to produce some of their content, content that was used in MOUL, which was merely taking content from existing ages, and slapping a new texture on it, and mixing it up a little.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:38 pm 
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So, how long does it take?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:42 pm 
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/me Ponders the reasons why kaelisebonrai doesn't create 'is own textures. Maybe it takes too long?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:53 pm 
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As an age creator, I enjoy creating my textures. It gives my ages a personal touch :) Sure there are some times where I need to use one or two of Cyans, but I try to avoid using others work as much as possible.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:42 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Tweek agrees somewhat with you but did not offer information on how long it took to develop an age or what he included in the development effort and presumably that was full time work for a week. In one of his posts he says something about working on a story for 6 years (not a full time effort). And you skipped over what Tweek or anyone might consider a 'decent' age. Then you are baffled at why there were not more Cyan ages.


Well I'm not sure how long the Ages in Uru Prologue took to be made, the only one I know of is Kadish Tolesa taking 6 months to make.

As for the time frame for my Ages, it varies greatly depending on;

a. the type of Age (size, textures needed etc seeming I pretty much make all my own textures)
b. the time I have to devote to it.

When I'm building Ages it's in my spare time, sometimes it'll be for an hour or two a day sometimes I'll spend an entire day working on it, this is also not a consistent thing, I could work on it for 3 days in a row then not work on it again for another 2 weeks.

This is down to either my having other things to do with my time, or it's down to the fact that I tend to have 2 to 3 Ages being built at the same time. As I've been learning more my build time has reduced greatly, I only started building in Blender back in September 08 and it took me a long time to do stuff back then.

I recently started blogging again at my portfolio site Grey Skies, retooling the blog to be aimed at Age building (development processes, textures, tutorials etc).
Whilst this blog entry doesn't have any kind of time frame attached to it, it does describe in part the process that went into developing Tochoortahv/Cass - http://grey-skies.net/blog/development-cass


Indeed I have been working on a story for the last 6 years, I started my Beneath site back in 03 and have been blogging there ever since, with other characters coming into the fold building up a storyline that can now (thanks to the advances in Age building) come into fruition outside of a website environment.

kaelisebonrai wrote:
Tweek has indeed mentioned 6 years of story, which I've followed quite happily. I'm fairly familar with at least a couple of examples of what Tweek might consider a "decent age" since he himself has released a few of his own. And, infact, the standards of his own ages are what I measure mine up to. His is entirely original, mine, use a preexisting texture library. I do model some of my own things, however, my own first age will not have many original models.


I like to think my Ages are alright, but when it comes down to it the opinion of the Age comes from those who play it. The term "Cyan Quality" and the concept that fans could never reach said quality is not a notion I buy into, given the effort fan Ages can quite easily reach that quality, indeed some have already IMO.

I spend a lot of time wandering around Cyan's stuff and Whil's stuff examining how they put things together, texture form and what not and use that to improve my own Ages.

My models use some from a pre-existing texture library, but it is one I have built up myself which contains a lot of textures I've made myself. Some textures are made up on the fly specifically for the Age in question.

Jamey wrote:
As an age creator, I enjoy creating my textures. It gives my ages a personal touch :) Sure there are some times where I need to use one or two of Cyans, but I try to avoid using others work as much as possible.


I love creating new textures, some from scratch some with another texture as a base, I agree it adds that personal touch, it also adds a greater depth to the Age.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:27 am 
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Teedyo wrote:
/me Ponders the reasons why kaelisebonrai doesn't create 'is own textures. Maybe it takes too long?


Why? Because I'm not a texture artist. I'm a modeller, and that's all I am. I've been known to use proceedural materials and then bake them, in the past, but I have not as yet done this in Uru content creation.

That, and the Age I am presently working on, is set in D'ni, as far as I'm concerned it would be disrespectful to use different textures on the established look of pre-existing D'ni constructions. For one, I'm creating a Kahlo-pub Styled area, and so, I am try to stay at least vaguely true to the subject matter.

And, as I said, this is also an experiment into the time it would take, given at least some of the content Cyan would've had to work from. I would imagine Cyan would have a library of textures greater than that which has been used in Uru, if they didn't I'd personally be worried.

I am also a modder, a "hacker" if you will, and I find it amusing at best, the closed-mindedness of the Uru Community regarding modifications. I hack Uru, please, get used to it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:59 am 
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Tweek, the last piece of information to help quantify things is how many people were working on Kadish?

Tweek wrote:
As for the time frame for my Ages, it varies greatly depending on;

Yeah, working in hobby mode means starting and stopping and that adds time. But, then that is how most age builders work. Also, when I have been away from a project for weeks or months and return my perception of it is different. Usually in that time I’ve learned and gained experience and realize I can improve a model or texture. So, there are things I go back and redo. All those things add to the time needed.

Tweek wrote:
I like to think my Ages are alright, but when it comes down to it the opinion of the Age comes from those who play it. The term "Cyan Quality" and the concept that fans could never reach said quality is not a notion I buy into, given the effort fan Ages can quite easily reach that quality, indeed some have already IMO.

I agree. I’ve seen several fan ages that are Cyan quality IMO.

kaelisebonrai wrote:
I am also a modder, a "hacker" if you will, and I find it amusing at best, the closed-mindedness of the Uru Community regarding modifications. I hack Uru, please, get used to it.

Hacking/cracking is part of the Uru tradition… actually all computer games. With open source hacking renamed to developing, it will become the primary method of improving the game. Second Life has started down the open source road. There are several controversies raging over how that works.

Many of the 'closed-mind' people are afraid the game will change if hacked or anything not made by Cyan is added. I think no matter what the game will change. Bugs will be fixed. Several feel the instancing of ages needs to be fixed for more consistent game play. Others feel the GameTap version wrecks the storyline. We have the problem of how new players more experienced with MMO’s will see the game. OpenUru.org has several possible changes for those problems.

From Prologue/Uru Live to Myst Online: Uru Live there were lots of changes. I suspect that will repeat with open source. Beside we have to work the fan ages in somehow. I look forward to some of the possible changes.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:43 pm 
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I'm going to pop in here, only because these posts are contributing to my sense of deja vu. We had this discussion in 2006 (about a year before MOUL began), and I was pretty upfront with trying to provide realistic expectations.

Parts of that post that are relevant to this thread:

Quote:
Not to pick on Cyan, but they have said things in the past that have not panned out

My response in 2006 was, and still is:
Quote:
Unfortunately, that is the way life is. "The best laid plans..." and all that. That is why we're generally very conservative with our announcements, and why we wait much longer to make them than some would like us to. Even when we're finally comfortable that something is likely enough to happen that we announce it, the announcements are usually packed with words like "plan", "intend", etc. Because we're clearly aware that things don't always go the way we think they should. We can't guarantee what will happen in the future, we can only tell you what our plans, intents, and goals are. (Emphasis added)


Quote:
Maybe after Uru Live has been up for some time they may be able to sustain an age a month. But not now, and not in the near future IMO

My responses (small edits for length - yes, it was a bit longer):
Quote:
That's the key distinction to this discussion. It isn't that an Age per month is impossible [...], it's that it isn't reasonable to expect that right now or in the immediate future. I absolutely agree with you on that. (Emphasis added)

We're pretty much in the same position now with Until Uru. There is no new content. That's just the way it is. All the content that we had ready or nearly ready for Live was repurposed for the xpacks and Myst V. The pipeline is (nearly) empty. Even if we get funding tomorrow, the pipeline will take months/years to fill again (depending on your definition of "full"). (That isn't to say that the pipeliine has to be "full" before anything new is released, but it won't happen overnight either.)

We are in the process of filling the pipeline back up, but that's going to take a while. Especially since, at the moment, we don't have as many artists, programmers, and testers as we had during the Prologue.

Six months is a realistic average for an Age to be designed, modeled, textured, wired, tested and released. Obviously some will take a little longer, some will not take quite as long, but that's a very reasonable average. If we release one Age per month, and each Age takes six months to make, it's pretty easy to figure out that we need to have six Ages in the pipeline at any given time to meet the “one Age per month”goal. When Prologue was cancelled we had eight or nine Ages in the pipeline (it was full) and several others ready to enter the pipeline when it was ready for them.

Please note my list of tasks for the Age to go through left out major categories in order to fit better with the DRC's five phases that had already been discussed. A more complete list would be something like: design, massing modeling, design check, detailed modeling, texturing, lighting, wiring, animations, feature programming, sound, music, testing, and fixing. I stand by my six month estimate for an average Age. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Also keep in mind that for MOUL we were starting with an empty pipeline (everything that had been in the pipeline had either been put into TPOTS or modified for Myst V) and less than half the staff we had for Uru.

A detailed explanation of our production pipeline can be found here.

And if you'd like to see timelapses of three of the Myst V Ages during part of development to see part of the pipeline in action (roughly going from massing model stage to texture/lighting stage), you can view them here. Disclaimers: the screenshots for the timelapses were taken where the artists placed their avatar spawn points for getting around the Age quickly during development. Those avatar spawn points were not placed with these timelapses in mind. Click on the top picture of each page to see the movie of the timelapse, click on each picture below for a large view of the highlight(s).

(If you still have questions on Age creation time, go ahead and read those whole threads, rather than just those selected posts - there are more details there.)

New topics in this thread:

"Cut and Paste" Garden Ages - Even if the models were identical (which they're not) you're only cutting out two of the thirteen steps listed above in creating the Age. Yeah, they look similar, and it seems like they "should be able to be done in a few days", because you're only considering modeling time. The problem is that you're neglecting to take into account that they have different design, different textures, different lighting, different sounds, different music, different animations, different puzzles, different wiring, etc. Each of those steps takes the same, or nearly the same amount of time, even if the model itself doesn't change at all. Yes, that was done so we could produce content efficiently with our constraints, but to imply that it was a simple copy and paste and *poof* it was done is not even remotely accurate.

TPOTS Ages - Er'cana, Ahnonay - major re-wiring was required so that multi-player would work in those Ages. Though those Ages were originally designed to be multi-player, we had to cut that functionality out of them when Prologue was cancelled in order to get them done for the single-player expansion packs in the few months we had to make them. The re-wiring for MOUL was not trivial and took months, especially for Ahnonay. That is why they were released so late. It isn't that they were done and waiting for us to arbitrarily release them. They were released when all the work behind the scenes was done. Again - just because something looks the same, doesn't mean that it didn't take any work to get working in MOUL. (See the phase 4b in the "five phases" post about things "looking" done before they're even wired.)

DRC being irresponsible - um, yeah, they were letting us surface dwellers stay in the cavern and the Ages. If we're going to be pedantic about their archaeological standards, then there is no excuse for "civilians" wandering around freely down there trampling everything in sight, and there is no game. If one really can't suspend that bit of disbelief, then feel free to pretend that the DRC decided to be more responsible and kicked us all out and are still down there doing things "properly". Boy, these past two years have been fun being stuck on the surface, haven't they? Hmm...Hold on a second... The upside if this is that this will greatly decrease production costs. The entire game can take place at Zandi's trailer with a DRC person coming up once in a while to say how well things are going. Budgetary problems (mostly) solved! Hurrah! :)

Minkata and Jalak - These two Ages were completely original for MOUL (they had not been designed previously).

Negilahn - the concept was designed for the original Uru Live, and production had started when Prologue was shut down. However, the original design was to be a small space (one pod) but a complex, interactive ecosystem - so it was designed to be low impact on the modelers and high impact on the animators, wirers, etc., because we were going to need that kind of variety of workloads to balance the pipeline in Uru Live. But Negilahn wasn't even close enough to being done to consider putting in the expansions. Then in MOUL, with the "renegade Bahro", the Age was completely redesigned to incorporate the Bahro destruction and the other pods and puzzle surounding the pods was added. Most of Negilahn's original modeling survived the re-design, but it had to be completely rewired and puzzle elements added, etc. The lack of the original design for Negilahn's ecosystem was now a perfect story fit with the destruction caused by the renegade Bahro. How convenient! Again, for the other pods that were added there's different lighting, scenery, sounds, animations, wiring, etc.for each pod. Are the pods so simple that we could have made countless different versions of them in a few days as stated? No. Were they another efficient use of our limited resources, and could they be done relatively quickly while the larger Ages made their way through the pipeline? Yes. (A realistic average would be roughly one month per pod.)

All that to say that we really did do the best we could with what we had. Just as we always have done, and continue to do to this day. If it doesn't look like it, well, then you're not considering "The Whole", as Ti'ana would say.

:)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:18 pm 
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I'm sure that much of the regret for Gametap pulling the plug on MOUL after the first season is that the second season really would have been ALL NEW content. The excitement of exploring and figuring out Minkata was, in my opinion, what we were going to be in for more of once we got past the integration of the POTS ages. I was glad the POTS stuff got in, as that had been the plan all along for those ages. I enjoyed the multi-player aspect of Ahnonay.

RAWA, thanks for the info on the pipeline and the challenge Cyan had in providing content with limited staffing. Just like Uru Live was ended in its infancy, Cyan wasn't afforded the time they needed to make MOUL succeed. Those are the ugly facts, and I'm sure as disappointed as we fans were in both instances (we'll leave instances for another discussion) that those at Cyan Worlds were much more devastated. We must remember this as we try to patiently wait for Cyan's timing to get Open Source Uru Live going so that the fans can continue this journey that Yeesha charged us with six years ago.

Thanks, and we look forward to your future posts as community manager!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:18 pm 
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Thank you RAWA!

It is always nice to get things straight from the horse's mouth. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Thanks so much for taking the time to clarify this RAWA, You Rock ! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:37 pm 
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And I'd also like to add how you say that you can come out with quality content faster Cyan when you're saying that your architecture is copied from Cyan's original ideas for the kahlo pub, and how you don't make your own textures, and how you haven't even mentioned lighting and sound. So I don't think its closed minded to question the originality of your "Cyan-quality" age, when I think a big part of that "Cyan-quality" is the originality, which from what you've said, it lacks.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for someone who comes out with something completely original and new (props to you Whilyam, and Tweek.. and many more haha).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:54 am 
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RAWA thanks for the detailed information. During '05 and '06 I was inactive in the community mostly having given up on UU as too lonely. I missed the posts you link to.

Your description fits more with what I suspected Cyan was doing.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:32 am 
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Thanks for that post RAWA. Awesome links and info.

I do want to go back to this post though. I don't work for Cyan, but I think I can offer a possible answer...

kaelisebonrai wrote:
Except, the trouble is, they /didn't/ make Teledahn during MOUL.

Everything they /did/ make, was either pre-existing, or a copy and paste. With two exceptions. Jalak, and Minkata.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I am however saying: "Why wasn't there more?"

They could've released a lot more of these copy-paste type things.

Another thing to note: Why were things like ahnonnay, k'veer, Myst, ahnonnay cathedral, er'cana, er'cana city silo released so late? Seriously. They should've been released pretty early down the line. Except, K'veer was the last thing they released.That seriously does not make any sense what-so-ever.

If there was a reason for this, I'd love to hear it, from a Cyan Employee that can speak for this period of development. But, until then, I see no reasons for the lack of content released during the full year that MOUL ran. There could've been a lot more small additions to Uru, things that could've been put together quite easily.

Wow. Did you not understand MOUL for what it was? MOUL was not just a content release. MOUL was about the story of URU. Hello? We were starting back from the beginning again. Many people who came to MOUL never played URU -- ever. Everything they saw was new. In addition, they got the story, live.

The goal from my point of view was not to just dump the old URU CC into the GameTap system and then go from there. The goal from my point of view was to bring the story to all, old players and new alike. This meant a slow release of the Cavern and its ages to the new explorers, just as we had in Prologue. Those of you who were there remember barricades coming down and new areas opening, then sometimes closing again and opening up again? I do. The key... Cyan was unfolding a story to us in each case. Prologue just died before it ever got started good. At least we got a years worht of MOUL! The URU story is told in the slow release of ages, which was the slow process that the DRC went through to check things out so explorers could proceed to these new ages. Storyline kaelisebonrai, storyline.

Your post sounds like that they expected to fail. I would bet that they had a storyline prepped for season two, don't cha' think? DUH! There was not enough money to present it to us though. Where did the bahro go when they abruptly left the city? How is Yeesha doing with her efforts? What about the DRC crew and their issues?

Do you for one minute think that they were going to start making it all up a couple of days before season two of MOUL was going to start?

While the episodic nature may not have been the best, for three weeks I could do other things. For a week, I could focus on MOUL and what was going to happen next. If you did not participate in the story of MOUL, then you missed the point of MOUL. The point in my opinion was not to release new places. The point in my opinion was to tell us more about the story and to go beyond URU CC, which we did. The release of ages was timed to coincide with the complete and total storyline that Cyan is trying to tell here. While you don't seem get it, I and many others surely do.

In your "nothing new rant", someone was developing this new storyline. That didn't just pop up over chips in the breakroom a couple of days before an episode. You forgot about interaction with the bahro, seeing them up close for the first time in URU and seeing them fly no less (yes, we saw them in Myst V, but not everyone played it). There were also new character avatars created for us. Someone had to "man" these avatars, so they had to be trained in the storyline and how to deal with the masses and stay in character.

I want to know what is going on with the storyline. New ages are a great bonus, but the story *IS* our game of URU. If they never ever open the cavern again, I hope they at least write a book for us true fans that want to know where MOUL was going. I would rather live it though, so I continue to hope it comes back in its full glory.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:41 am 
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Quote:
Do you for one minute think that they were going to start making it all up a couple of days before season two of MOUL was going to start?


And here I thought that was the genius that made it last the whole year round.

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