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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Teedyo wrote:
They have always stated that it would be open source uru (plasma, tools, server) and not open content uru. There has been no deception going on with this point. If the content were to be released under an open license, it would no longer be uru; it would 6 or 7 or 100 versions of what used to be uru. This doesn't mean that current content can't be modified/improved: it just means that such improvements would have to be consented to/approved by Cyan.

Right.

I think Dustin is concerned that Cyan could arbitrarily and capriciously shut down an Uru shard by pulling it's license to use the Uru content. It's a valid question to ask Cyan about where they draw the line, but the fear is likely born from years of "underground" operations and an often adversarial relationship with Cyan. Opening the sources would eradicate the dysfunction. I think most of us would enjoy Cyan exercising such a right upon shards attempting, for example, to place adult content in Cyan ages or otherwise exploit Cyan's reputation and IP for selfish, even illegal gains. Cyan needs to protect its content as much as any studio would be expected to protect Harry Potter, Spiderman, The Lord of the Rings, Star Trek and so on. I really think the GoW will find a much better relationship than that which they have grown accustomed, but the trust thing will take some time.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:37 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
I think Dustin is concerned that Cyan could arbitrarily and capriciously shut down an Uru shard by pulling it's license to use the Uru content. It's a valid question to ask Cyan about where they draw the line, but the fear is likely born from years of "underground" operations and an often adversarial relationship with Cyan.

I think you may have missed my point here - There are 2 ways to get a license for the Uru content:
  • Log in to a licensed shard, where the shard owner has reached a (potentially paid) agreement with Cyan
  • Own a copy of Uru:ABM, Uru:CC, or any of the other released versions.

If you, personally, have a copy of the game, you are licensed to use/play it. Thus people could run "Bring your own content" style servers, as well as having fully licensed "We'll provide the content for you" servers.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:57 pm 
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CrisGer wrote:
Let us be happy and rejoice that we have the chance to Return. Be grateful for gifts given and shared. Wonderful and much appreciated.


I agree, and I think this warrants a great deal of repetition.

Thanks for the news, RAWA, and it is good to see you again.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Anaerin wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
I think Dustin is concerned that Cyan could arbitrarily and capriciously shut down an Uru shard by pulling it's license to use the Uru content. It's a valid question to ask Cyan about where they draw the line, but the fear is likely born from years of "underground" operations and an often adversarial relationship with Cyan.

I think you may have missed my point here - There are 2 ways to get a license for the Uru content:
  • Log in to a licensed shard, where the shard owner has reached a (potentially paid) agreement with Cyan
  • Own a copy of Uru:ABM, Uru:CC, or any of the other released versions.
If you, personally, have a copy of the game, you are licensed to use/play it. Thus people could run "Bring your own content" style servers, as well as having fully licensed "We'll provide the content for you" servers.

Apples and, umm. crabapples. The "product" in question is the MOUL version et. al., not ABM, CC or any previous version(s). As such, the only licensed way to get MOUL content is to download it from Cyan; there is (currently) no other available method other than that which we shall not discuss. Whether they restrict distribution of their content to be only from their own server or other "authorized servers", is entirely up to them. This would, of course, irritate some, but it is a way for them to try and keep only authorized versions out in the 'wild'.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:39 pm 
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jek wrote:
I'm dumb. :roll: I just can't seem to get this whole argument about Cyan's definition of open source and some other fans definition of open source. […]

Jek/Lightkeeper, I don’t see the issue so much as about ‘definitions’ as it is pushing and justifying a perception of Cyan and personal desire. Cyan has said from the start they planned to open source parts of Uru; Plasma, client code, and server code while restricting content, nothing deceptive there. Teedyo and JWPlatt write about it too. Restricting content and Cyan exercising any control over Cyan’s content is a problem for some people.

English is ambiguous and we are often lazy and imprecise in our use of it. When Cyan has made a precise statement and later uses a generality that assumes the listener is aware of limits previously set, it is just common usage. That some don’t notice that or have a reason not to hear it does not make a less precise statement deceptive. Count the posts of those that ‘get it’ and those that do not and notice the names.

Rawa talked to Rand and got us an update. YAY! Good going Rawa and thanks Rand and Rawa. In typical Uru fan puzzle solver mode we over think it. In typical Rand/Cyan style some parts are ambiguous and open to multiple understandings. I think that is just the nature of English and humans.

What I infer from the note is Rand saying nothing has changed. I can speculate that the “We want to "open source" URU, and keep a centralized server/world.” is another way of writing the same thing said for the last year. That open source is in quotes says they mean something special and different than the most common meaning of the term. That is in keeping with earlier statements.

What does “…keep a centralized server/world…” mean? We are going to speculate about that until we see the licenses. Some of us will speculate it is in keeping with Rand/Cyan’s former statements. Others will spin off to other meanings. We will know who is right when we see the licenses.

I’m with those that say ‘strip out the problem code… leave a note and a clue as to what it did’ and give us the code. I think implicit in that is that we will get the licenses. I think seeing the licenses is actually more important.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
What does “…keep a centralized server/world…” mean? We are going to speculate about that until we see the licenses. Some of us will speculate it is in keeping with Rand/Cyan’s former statements. Others will spin off to other meanings. We will know who is right when we see the licenses.

The ambiguity here is quite confusing. Does Rand mean:
  • Sourcecode Repository Server
  • Cyan Content Server
  • Cyan-Run Game Server
Any of those servers would count, and depending on which one he means (and which one(s) they're working on getting up) depends on just how things are going to move forward.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:22 am 
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Nalates wrote:
What does “…keep a centralized server/world…” mean? We are going to speculate about that until we see the licenses. Some of us will speculate it is in keeping with Rand/Cyan’s former statements. Others will spin off to other meanings. We will know who is right when we see the licenses.


There was a post somewhere but i can not find it now where cyan said the code for the server, client, and then tools to create age's would be open but the cyan created ages would not be and they should setup a data server to hold there ages.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:28 am 
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Thank you so much Cris for the message and the pics you shared with everyone. I miss the cavern so much, along with all the good plp i was so blessed to meet there. Cyan was so Way ahead of their time. Someday soon we will all be able to meet again in the "new cavern". There are so many fan created ages which are already out there for us to explore, which are very "Cyan-like". I cant wait to see what we will get to share with all our new neighbors when they release MORE.
untill then...
Shorah!
Nita
/me waves

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:28 am 
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MercAngel wrote:
There was a post somewhere but i can not find it now where cyan said the code for the server, client, and then tools to create age's would be open but the cyan created ages would not be and they should setup a data server to hold there ages.


That text is on the MOUL website under the HOME button. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:32 am 
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Anaerin wrote:
Nalates wrote:
What does “…keep a centralized server/world…” mean? We are going to speculate about that until we see the licenses. Some of us will speculate it is in keeping with Rand/Cyan’s former statements. Others will spin off to other meanings. We will know who is right when we see the licenses.

The ambiguity here is quite confusing. Does Rand mean:
  • Sourcecode Repository Server
  • Cyan Content Server
  • Cyan-Run Game Server
Any of those servers would count, and depending on which one he means (and which one(s) they're working on getting up) depends on just how things are going to move forward.

I think it is only confusing if one forgets what Cyan has said previously.

The Home page, as veralun points to, says what Rand/Cyan's hope is. Also the Developers page expends on the server Cyan plans to run.

Cyan Developer Page wrote:
However, we will be creating a Myst Online: Uru Live data server with the compiled game data so that fan supported servers can connect to and then serve that data to their users.


From those pages I get the idea that Cyan will provide a data server to hold what a player's client software will need to see the MOUL ages. They say fan supported servers will connect to those and then serve the data to players. I don't see anything that suggests Cyan will run login servers or a game vault. Use of the words 'their users' would seem to indicate they won't.

Nor do we have any information on how the Cyan content will be restricted, just that it will not be part of the open source and will have its own license for those that plan to use it.

One can speculate on what is meant by 'fan supported servers'. I think one can assume they mean any fan owned and operated servers. I don't get they mean a Cyan server paid for by fans. I suppose one could take that meaning. I don't see that fitting with Cyan's style of operation. Until we see the licenses, we won't know.

One might also decide that since the MOUL software scales well, Cyan is hoping and thinking fans will combine their servers into a single large shard (if one considers a shard a group of servers with a single login point and game vault). Use of the word 'centralized' probably gives this idea more weight. The idea and desire does not preclude multiple shards. Only the license will tell us for sure.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:33 am 
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Thankyou, Rand. It was encouraging to hear that Cyan is still committed to enabling us to return to a cavern run from a centralised server. I hope that economic circumstances make this possible in the shorter rather than longer term. It seems to me that Cyan have a perfect right to control over IP. Those of you hacking can go on hacking, I can't, and wouldn't on principle. But I would like to go back to a Cyan-controlled central server cavern with the people I miss, and if Cyan takes on the considerable talent some myst fans have for creating worlds on its terms, then that to me would be both reasonable and exciting.

It is actually, their game, their cavern. They kindly shared it with us.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Hi Nita :) Hi Julia, ... ys, we all look forward to a Return, and to the chance to visit in the Cavern once again. Great to hear from everyone and from RAWA and Rand esp. :) Thank you for sharing with us.

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 Post subject: Looking into questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:19 pm 
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I see many questions in this thread that I don't know the answers to. As I said in an earlier thread, I've been out of this loop for almost two years - and when I moved onto other projects, the open source idea wasn't on the table, so I simply cannot answer the questions that are being raised. I will collect the questions and pass them by Rand and MarkD, and provide any answers I can when I can.

I will also pass on apparent consensus that you (at least those who've written on the topic) are ok with having things that cannot be released ripped out and handed off rather than waiting for them to be rewritten, even if it means it won't work at all when initially provided.

One question I can answer, sort of: When is "soon"? "Soon" is a highly-technical term here at Cyan. It means later than "Now" but before "Someday". In this case, it means that someone's spare cycles are being spent on it. Given the nature of "spare cycles", there is no set timetable. It'll get done when it gets done.

The complete scale goes something like this: Now, Very Soon, Soon, Later Than Soon, Sooner Than Later, Later, Much Later, Eventually, Someday, Forget It

Hope that helps.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:32 pm 
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RAWA wrote:

The complete scale goes something like this: Now, Very Soon, Soon, Later Than Soon, Sooner Than Later, Later, Much Later, Eventually, Someday, Forget It


We need a new C.O.A.S. Chart :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Quote:
One question I can answer, sort of: When is "soon"? "Soon" is a highly-technical term here at Cyan. It means later than "Now" but before "Someday". In this case, it means that someone's spare cycles are being spent on it. Given the nature of "spare cycles", there is no set timetable. It'll get done when it gets done.

The complete scale goes something like this: Now, Very Soon, Soon, Later Than Soon, Sooner Than Later, Later, Much Later, Eventually, Someday, Forget It


:D

we are at the good end of the scale ! :) 8)

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