Drizzle and "rogue" shards

EthanEver · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:35 pm

Apples, umbrellas and Go Cart Tracks

I think I got it. /goes off hauling out the garbage

ddb174 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:27 pm **Posts:** 167

Heh, yeah, that's a good analogy Tai'lahr :D

D'Lanor · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:56 pm

I think one detail in the Cart Track analogy needs to be adjusted. The newer cart track remains closed. It can only be opened up by the owner. That is what we are all waiting for. What can be used currently is:

An old battered cart track which the owner initially gave free access to but which was later locked down when the newer cart track opened its doors. The old cart track's lock proved to be insufficient to keep the kids out.
A provisional cart track built entirely by the kids from odds and ends.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:04 pm

And:

The cart track is not demolished because its existence and loose locks allow interest to thrive in the hopes that one day the owner can justify reopening it, maybe with public funding.

EthanEver · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:59 pm

/me hauls back in the garbage...

zander_nyrond · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:45 pm

ddb174 wrote:

Also, your story is garbage: fan Ages and conversions through Drizzle not only keep interest alive (a valuable thing for a company to have), but it actually *sells* copies of MystV, Crowthistle, and Hexisle. (You might think that everyone here would already have MystV, but I had a number of emails from people asking how they could buy it.)

Garbage? Really?

Okay. Well, since Cyan aren't planning to make any profit from open source Uru, and judging by the prices I'm seeing on Amazon they can't be exactly coining it in on the previous games*, I'm not sure exactly how "valuable" the unauthorised use of their assets actually is to them, but, again, that is not relevant. The issue is not whether, to return to my faulty analogy, the kids who steal the apples are doing the stallholder a favour by telling everyone how nice his apples are. The point is that the apples are not paid for and therefore are not theirs. That point remains valid whether we're talking about consumable goods or intellectual assets; if they are used, the owner must be paid for that use. And if the kids tried that attitude on with the stallholder, I imagine his goodwill towards them would swiftly evaporate.

But I'm sure you know best, and sooner or later Cyan will show their gratitude.

*In fact I'd go further. I can't find a working "buy it now" link for any of the Myst games on their official sites, so I'd hazard that most if not all sales that are taking place now are at second hand, and benefit Cyan not a penny piece. I could be wrong on that, of course, but it seems quite likely.

Paradox · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:57 pm

Since Drizzle requires you to already own MystV, Chrowthistle, and/or Hex Isle, I don't see where you're pulling this idea that the content isn't being paid for.

Shards are another matter, but most of them (if they theoretically existed

) would be set up in such a way that they also require you to have converted the content yourself (which requires you to have bought it).

zander_nyrond · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:07 pm

I'm pulling it from the fact that the kind of use to which the content is being put is not covered by the contract of sale under which the games were purchased, as categorically stated by Cyan and acknowledged by almost everyone here. They have not authorised that use. Why is this so hard to grasp?

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:59 am

zander_nyrond wrote:

Well, since Cyan aren't planning to make any profit from open source Uru..

Just to comment on this point alone, it is an assumption I see posted a lot. Personally, I would not make such an assumption. Many open source projects are there to make service and ancillary revenues. The code, binaries and installations are free, but the end use product generally is not. Linux, Apache and MySQL are three good examples. Hosting services use a lot of free software like this, but that does not make hosting services free. Websites can charge admittance to content or sell product through webstores served solely by open source software. There are many more open source projects out there that do just this. Cyan has a graphics and game engine. That engine needs content production to do something with it. There's a good chance that there's a lot of creative and service opportunities that could spring from all this. That's the point I'd be making to Cyan and others to provide more inspiration, encouragement, and motivation for their open source project.

Nalates · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:35 am

Umbrellas… mmmm let’s add a cat.

zander_nyrond, your mostly right but ddb174 and Pardox are not wrong and have valid points. It is not so much things are hard to grasp as it is they are not sharply defined. The EULA does say what one can and cannot do with the games. However, there are some holes in the EULA, which is not law. Copyright law has gray areas. Then there is practicality. Since it is civil law that EULA falls under there is the matter of damages. If it should ever go to court some parts of the EULA might not be enforceable. If they were collecting the evidence needed to enforce the EULA, it would be a significant problem. Proving damages is also difficult.

What can I do with the files on my computer? How will anyone know what I did with those files? What damages did I cause? I think, those questions show the legal problem.

Your apple vendor is pretty much how I see it. Tai’lahr’s example handles the consumables better. There is the additional problem that if a cop ever sees the theft and the owner does nothing about it, failes to press charges, the apples/track become public property. Because of the friendship, or at least kindly feelings, between the owner and the kids it is in both their interest to not get caught or make a public display. As long as the theft stays within limits and maintains a significant level of discretion the owner may continue turning a blind eye.

Several of us think Drizzle may push a piece or two of that gray area too far. I think more of us feel the EULA was broken but we can’t see the damage. I do see a risk to Cyan. They are active in protecting their rights, so that seems to be under control. But, I see all this as very much like a “Schrödinger's cat” type issue. If the box is not opened, the cat is fine. The Drizzle issue is so borderline it’s a legal technicality with no measurable damages. However, opening the box, being indiscrete, crystallizes the issues and changes the current balance.

I see zander_nyrond’s position as a simple black and white. Ddb174’s pointing out that Drizzle sells games, while socially significant here, does not really bear on the EULA issues. So, while Drizzle and probably UAM break part of the EULA unless someone can show damages it all seems moot.

Whether Cyan is or is not making money and whether they consider the income significant or not is not something we can know. Whether new or used sales lead, I doubt we have any information to tell us. We have a thread here where Myst has come out on [url=Myst on GOG.com]GOG.com[/url]. If the movie comes out, the Myst franchise may heat up. But, that does not really change any of the issues.

Like JWP says, the assumption Cyan has no intention of making money from the Myst franchise or Uru is unfounded. At least I’ve not seem a statement from them to that effect.

zander_nyrond · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:23 pm

Okay, fair enough. I know it's not as simple as black and white, and the cat analogy is apt, especially if we think of it as being in a bag rather than a box.

Nalates wrote:

As long as the theft stays within limits and maintains a significant level of discretion the owner may continue turning a blind eye.

That's exactly it. I personally have no concern about what's been done as long as Cyan does not say they have a problem with it, and as long as the people who've done it don't make it so noticeable that Cyan can't ignore it without risking loss to them. Implying that they should thank the hackers for doing them this favour seems to me to strike a worrying note.

ChloeRhodes · **Joined:** Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:29 am **Posts:** 520

Nalates wrote:

If a fan uses Cyan textures, sounds, music, animation, scripts, computer code, game/character names and etc. from any of Cyan’s copyrighted works without permission, they are infringing on Cyan’s copyright. If a fan uses all original work, there is no infringement and the fan is free to do as they wish with their original work. They can even sell it for a profit, if they choose.

Let us be clear on something Nalates. The use of Cyan textures and sounds have already been approved. Cyan has made it clear that as long as the sound files are not distributed with an age, using their sounds is okay. (IE, if you want to include a cyan sound in an age, you can link to in the manner that blender exports the age, but not distribute the sound. Since anyone downloading your age already has the sound in their Uru folder you don't need to distribute it anyway) These only cover sounds from Uru however. This was covered two years ago. THEN a year ago RAWA and Chogon clarified to several community members that the use of Cyan textures in fan created content was fine, as long as those textures are being used only in association with the plasma engine (IE in Uru or MORE) and as long as they're not used for commercial use. The reason for this use was because as the Guidelines for Fan Created content were being hashed out, we were allowed the use of creating D'ni ages and parts of the cavern as long as they were self contained. (Only reachable via the Nexus). Many of us age creators (Myself Included) then had to go ahead and ask questions regarding new D'ni neighborhoods and areas that are in the cavern, and if we could use the textures to keep the continuity of the cavern (IE if a neighborhood was to have a Nexus pedestal, were we allowed to use Cyan's textures for the pedestal) and we were told that they would rather us use their textures, for any new part of the cavern, rather than use new ones that are of our own making. We were told that we could use their textures and our own to make the area unique.

The basic requirements were
A. The age had to stick within the confines of it's FCAL.
B. Any Cyan Assets that were used were only to be used in conjunction with the Plasma Engine.

Letter from Chogon

Nalates · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:41 am

Well… in the interest of being clear…

ChloeRhodes wrote:

The use of Cyan textures and sounds have already been approved.

The use of Cyan textures was not approved by RAWA in the Andy post you quote. And use of those textures is for limited use and very restricted, as you go on to point out, and requires (required? – has anyone gotten a FCAL since open source came on the scene?) a license.

The Cyan IP has never been released into the public domain. The whole point of the FCAL was to grant permission and make sure the user agreed to Cyan’s limits of use. That was a granting of limited and conditional permission. One must conform to Cyan requirements (FCAL) not to conflict with their story, stick to the Plasma engine/library, etc. My point was that if the fan created all their own meshes and textures, they could do whatever they wanted.

Use of the Cyan IP outside that scope is still an infringement.

ChloeRhodes · **Joined:** Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:29 am **Posts:** 520

Nalates wrote:

Well… in the interest of being clear…

ChloeRhodes wrote:

The use of Cyan textures and sounds have already been approved.

The use of Cyan textures was not approved by RAWA in the Andy post you quote. And use of those textures is for limited use and very restricted, as you go on to point out, and requires (required? – has anyone gotten a FCAL since open source came on the scene?) a license.

First of all. There were two responses from Chogon, not just the one from Andy. Andy's was in response to cavern textures. The second one, which was also from Chogon to Whilyam, clarified that Cyan's "assets" must be governed by the FCAL. And only used in Uru. Both quotes seemed to indicate that the ULM is covered under the Plasma Engine (which seems to be a mistake on their part, as the ULM is not a part of the Plasma Engine but whatever) . However Whilyam never asked for use of Cyan's textures. Chogon's, response basically was "If you get a FCAL, you have our permission to use Cyan assets only within the confines of your age, and only distributed with the ULM for use in the Plasma Engine. And not for commercial use." If I'm wrong on that Chogon will most likely correct me, but I'm pretty sure (like 99%) that I'm not.

Quote:

The whole point of the FCAL was to grant permission and make sure the user agreed to Cyan’s limits of use. That was a granting of limited and conditional permission. One must conform to Cyan requirements (FCAL) not to conflict with their story, stick to the Plasma engine/library, etc. My point was that if the fan created all their own meshes and textures, they could do whatever they wanted.

No, They still have to confine with the guidelines set forth by RAWA. No age can (Though they are) be distributed without a FCAL. Until Cyan figures out how to give FCAL's out quicker (Which is what the whole point of cooperative effort between GoMA and Cyan was supposed to do) We're stuck FCAL's coming at the slow pace set by CyanLegal.

Quote:

Use of the Cyan IP outside that scope is still an infringement.

This is true. My point is though, if you get a FCAL, you are then permitted to use Cyan stuff. Not before. But since we are not getting FCAL's right now we're stuck in the state of "what do we do now. we know we can use their stuff when we get one, and we know that we're not getting them cause of the state of flux things are in right now. So should we not use them till we do...and replace those textures later, or just use them and wait for our FCAL's" and most of us take the approach of sending out the request and using the textures while we wait on the response. Since once we get one we have their permission it's a Catch 22. We're not supposed to release the age without an FCAL (which gives us permission to use their textures/assets) regardless of wether we're using our own textures or not. So most of the ages released in the last year (unless they got FCAL's) are "illegal" releases. Kind of like Yeesha giving us an age we're not supposed to have access to yet.

Charura · **Joined:** Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 pm **Posts:** 1773

Chogon wrote:

Quote:

The statement is simply that we have not given any such official permission or approval or sanctioning.

I'm clear on that....why all the debacle and politiking? I don't get it..Nor do we got it....shut up..sit down and wait....OR we could all (as in a high school football stadium) SHUT UP, SIT DOWN, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.....ROFL

Oh No...I've seen this in my deepest dreams.....Could it be just a dream? I'm hoping the horde of attorneys don't break down my front door....could that be worse than reading these posts...BTW...kinda familiar?....I'm liking those paths on that island...I somehow have forgotten that name....Maybe, one day it will come to me......

Drizzle and "rogue" shards

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