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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Zardoz wrote:
I too am eternally surprised at the boorish behavior that constantly masquerades as "debate" in these forums (and that's not directed at you, Nye_Sigismund, nor at Egon). Let me be so bold as to say that Egon's point is (I think) one that we've debated before, and so hardly constitutes "stupidity" or being a "troll". Instead (and apologies to Egon), I think there is a confusion between in-game historical record and canon. Canon is also a much debated concept, but I think most people would agree that it exists both inside and outside a game. A canonical fact can exist even if it is nowhere to be found inside the game that embodies the canonical universe. And so the story of Scars is part of Uru canon, but it is not part of any in-game historical record.

My take on what Egon is saying is that he is making some observations about what constitutes the Uru in-game historical record - which is to say, near zippo. This makes the question of canon unnecessarily contentious and confusing, as new (and old) players are constantly forced to search forums and other obscure sources of information to resolve questions. Egon is taking an extreme position, IMHO, which is one that limits the set of relevant "facts" (which I distinguish form canon) to those found in the game. Whether this is a position that I agree with or not isn't particularly relevant - it is what it is.

Having said that, my personal opinion is that Uru is the type of game that will always have an in-game and out-of-game reality, as the preafter adventures demonstrated - and just to make Egon's point, how many people know what the heck I'm talking about? The problem has always been the absence of a dynamic historical record that ought to reside on the DRC site (IMHO).

See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Someone who disagrees with Egon, actually trying to understand and engage in debate, instead of . . . well, sometimes it's so hard to practice what one preaches, so I'll just end this post now.


Canon is the collection of facts about the in-game world. There is no reasonable distinction between the two. That is why declaring facts not found in the game to not have existed is incorrect, regardless of the understanding of new people. We must put those facts into the game (and I would prefer to see an audio guide, perhaps voiced by some of the talent we have in the community), but they did happen, they do matter, they are canon, and I believe anything else is delusion.

Now, from reading Egon's posts, I'm fairly certain that he/she does not speak English as a primary language. So it's likely Egon doesn't recognize the distinctions I do. I could not, in the time I had free, find any mention of the need for information to be brought into the game until this entry:
Egon wrote:
Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
I think I'm starting to see what's going wrong, and Marten has nailed it. Sorry for misunderstanding, Egon. If I have it right now, you aren't saying that the events of the past aren't important, you're asking how a new player can consider them important when there's no evidence for them inside the game apart from hearsay?

Thats more or less what I'm trying to say here. I just used my "shocking" words on purpose though: to provoke thinking about this issue. Because as far I can tell, not many people realize that this is an issue, and how big it is.

THAT is why I see it as Egon changing tune. Until then, it was "If it isn't IN the game, it isn't canon!" which is utter tripe. Even for new people, I've seen plenty of people ask "what's this?" and someone will tell them. They don't ask "well, that's obviously not canon since it's coming from a person." That IS a problem since inaccurate information can just as easily get disseminated and it requires way too much effort.

Ideally, it would be a full in-game tutorial: audio, game characters telling you how to work things, you leave the area knowing how to use the KI, etc. For historical events, a similar thing with DRC characters and audio talking about events in the previous restorations would work too. That would take a lot of dedication and an open sourced Uru, but it would work well to get people up to speed. I don't really like the idea of making events happen again because it just feels tacky, like explorers are going to walk into this old virtual reality box where events are replayed for them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:15 am 
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The thoughts, feelings and voices heard in Uru's past remain relevant to Uru because they are Uru. Any suggestion to the contrary is meaningless and can safely be ignored.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:09 am 
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See, now, that kind of talk doesn't help. Nothing that has been said here is meaningless. You talk about "thoughts, feelings and voices heard in Uru's past" being part of Uru, and then you go and say that the "thoughts, feelings and voices" being heard in Uru's present, right now, are meaningless and can be ignored. Which is not what Egon was saying about the past voices, but it's what many of us leapt to the conclusion that he was saying.

Egon's voice is part of the history of Uru now. This is how one of us felt at a given time. This feeling is as real and meaningful as anything you can bring up from the Prologue days. And I bet back then there were people saying "ah, this or that person isn't saying anything meaningful. You can safely ignore them."


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Folks, this can be a nice topic to exchange ideas on what we can do to improve our game. Please, let's be respectful of all opinions without the name calling. Think about your words. By now, you know how emotional folks can be about these topics.

Example: " Any suggestion to the contrary is meaningless and can safely be ignored."

... might evoke more constructive discussion if it said "I disagree, I think it's all relevant"

Thanks, all!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:07 pm 
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I agree with Whilyam. There is no need for a reference handbook.
I think. Coming new to the game, what is here called canon, is not important to play. A recommended handbook to get to past events is just in the way. Let the past come to life through other players relaying what they remember or have heard when the new or old player cares to know. I found that very interesting coming in late myself. Descriptions ingame should be about how to play the game, clues or other ways of understanding the riddles involved, or it will be to cluttered with information.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:26 am 
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I've become convinced that there are a lot of people in this conversation that mistakenly believe that the word "canon" and the word "history" point at the same meaning.

I find it morbidly fascinating to observe the sort of verbal weapons this sort of confusion allows to become manifest, as well as the entrenched willingness of some individuals to allow these weapons to carry any potency whatsoever.

Ironically, the mythical D'ni history is as rife with such states of confusion as is our own. Neither continuum seems to display many individuals that have become wiser in recognition of it.

The word is not the thing, just as the map is not the terrain.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:40 am 
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Sorry you're finding it confusing, RK01.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:19 pm 
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Wait - I'm confused between "canon" and "history". What is the difference?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:48 pm 
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mszv wrote:
Wait - I'm confused between "canon" and "history". What is the difference?


I think "canon" (noun?) contains within it the "history" of a fictional story or setting. "Canon" could also contain the existence of present locations, people, and things. "History" could, in this case, simply refers to past events that were flagged as "canon" (adverb).

As far as the rest of this thread is concerned, I'm all for giving new players the tools they need to play the game as soon as is realistically possible. (namely, the KI) This could very well mean that there will be multiple ways to get around to acquiring those tools. (Prompting users to acquire a KI by supplying a linking book to an appropriate location from the Nexus, for one. The present signs in the 'hoods could stay as well.)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:46 pm 
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You're absolutely right, MedicOfOld. The "canon" of Uru does indeed contain the "history" of this particular fictional setting, both as pre-established by Cyan and as determined by the players who have gone before. And while it's not absolutely essential to know it to play the game, it does add immeasurably to the experience.

I don't remember having a particular problem getting the KI myself--it seemed fairly straightforward. But if people are having problems with it, then it makes sense to consider ways of making it easier without if possible sacrificing story logic. As I understand it, the KI dispenser's in Gahreesen because the KI is a Maintainer device (and IIRC a fairly new one at the time of the Fall) and that's the Age where (in the original game) it becomes most immediately necessary. Of course, the To D'ni add-on included the Nexus which also required it, and then everything got squirgled around in the Gametap era. I can see where having a KI dispenser actually in the hood would make sense. I don't think putting one in the Cleft or in Relto would necessarily seem logical, but if it's needed then I'm sure we can work out a justification...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
You're absolutely right, MedicOfOld. The "canon" of Uru does indeed contain the "history" of this particular fictional setting, both as pre-established by Cyan and as determined by the players who have gone before. And while it's not absolutely essential to know it to play the game, it does add immeasurably to the experience.


Ok, good. :) Just wanted to make sure I was on the same page as everyone else.

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
I don't remember having a particular problem getting the KI myself--it seemed fairly straightforward. But if people are having problems with it, then it makes sense to consider ways of making it easier without if possible sacrificing story logic.


I never really had a problem with getting, or understanding the KI either. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most players have been able to get their KI without that much difficulty. However, that is probably because most players either have played URU (on- or off-line) or at least know someone who did, and got advice on how to start.

The real difficulty I see is that some new players just starting out might not fully understand just how useful the KI is for day-to-day play. I myself have encountered one or two new players participating in group puzzles or activities without a KI. Since it is not always completely obvious that someone doesn't have a KI, most players don't bother telling them about it. Then they get really confused when player start saying things like "I'll send you a KI-mail." or "You should see a button on your KI that does that." It isn't that players can't get it, it's that players don't always understand that they need it, or that it even exists. (in my opinion anyway)

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
As I understand it, the KI dispenser's in Gahreesen because the KI is a Maintainer device (and IIRC a fairly new one at the time of the Fall) and that's the Age where (in the original game) it becomes most immediately necessary.


Gahreesen is a perfect example of how to show players that they need something they don't have. Possible puzzle spoilers below:

[spoiler]Once players associate the KI with the circular symbol on the doors, they are able to figure out its significance. They then are able to connect that symbol with the idea of "you need a KI to access this".

Unfortunately, Gahreesen is not always the first Age people would go to. Since the link from the 'hood's is to a different, more limited version, players might not always make that connection.

I would like the use of this same symbol again in the whole "Nexus refused link, you need a KI, go here" idea, since it might allow players to establish that connection early on. Using that same symbol in other, KI-related situations might emphasize its importance.[/spoiler]

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Of course, the To D'ni add-on included the Nexus which also required it, and then everything got squirgled around in the Gametap era. I can see where having a KI dispenser actually in the hood would make sense. I don't think putting one in the Cleft or in Relto would necessarily seem logical, but if it's needed then I'm sure we can work out a justification...


I agree, I don't really think that the dispenser needs to move, or the method for getting the KI needs to change. I think great improvements in gameplay could be made just by cluing the player in using more than just a few signs and vague references by other players.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:00 pm 
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mszv wrote:
Wait - I'm confused between "canon" and "history". What is the difference?


Canon may be supported by some aspects of history, yet not all history is, by necessity, included in a particular canon. Generally speaking , up until the declaration of the Age of OS URU, D'ni canon has always been the remit of Cyan. That is about to change, since not all D'ni canon has been revealed.

Canon has more in common with gospel or dogma and typically involves rules. For example, what is referred to as "The Art" is very deeply intertwined with and defined by D'ni canon.

On the other hand, During the historical age of UU, it was discovered that a race of people who call themselves The WE, had inhabited the cavern simultaneously with the D'ni, yet in fact, their civilization pre-dates the D'ni by hundreds of thousands of years. The fact of the existence of The We is not necessarily canonical, yet.......

The WE possess their own form of multiverse travel that bears a striking resemblance to that of The Art in terms of its practical results, yet differs dramatically with regards to the specific method involved. This has led some to speculate that there is as yet an undiscovered metaphysical principal or principals at work within both the D'ni Art, and the traveling habits of The WE, that informs both methods. If such a principal(s) were to be discovered, those processes would become a component of both the D'ni and WE canon to the depth and breadth of its manifestation.

In the context of the current conversation, it is possible that many forms of undefined canon are currently in operation, yet the only canon that is relatively well developed is that which informs the D'ni history that has so far been codified. That is not to say that all D'ni canon is currently manifest, or that as the Age of OS URU begins to take shape, that Cyan will be always be the sole authority on all D'ni canon or, for that matter, any other canon that may emerge.

This is also not to say that there won't continue to be many extremely small minds harboring narrow perspectives, and possessing little tolerance for that which does not align with their own ego processes. These individuals will continue to display all the nonsense that goes along with that can of worms.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:47 pm 
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If such a principal(s) were to be discovered,
It looks like the English lesson failed. You mean principle.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:18 pm 
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No, it's all an incredibly subtle and ironic metaphor involving headmasters...

I remember the story of the We, though I didn't follow it in any depth. My own perspective would be that the story is part of the canon (that is, the fact that the We were talked about, and someone purporting to be one of them was (IIRC) encountered by a few explorers) but the actual (pseudo-)historical data about the We is not established as "canonical" until and unless Cyan say so. And if they don't, it becomes a mystery, and maybe a new story in its own right.

And the rest is just the usual undirected abuse.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:34 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
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If such a principal(s) were to be discovered,
It looks like the English lesson failed. You mean principle.


Actually I mean that Ivan Pavlov's Nobel Prize was very well deserved. Both times the use was intentional, but each for very different reasons.


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