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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:12 pm 
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RAWA confirmed they are still keeping track of the pellets. That's enough to know for now. We can someday still hope to see the effect of all our baking and dropping.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:19 pm 
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But he didn't say anything more than what we've been told before. Its not been answered, we KNOW there is nothing wired. They're keeping track of numbers, fine... But there's nothing more to it than, one day, Cyan will decide its time to re-export Ae'gura with better lighting.

RAWA, I'd kinda hoped you wouldn't just say that... That's.. well... really disappointing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:47 pm 
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RAWA wrote:
kaelisebonrai wrote:
but don't just tell us "it does light the lake, trust me"

It does light the lake. Trust me. [I don't check the lake's pellet points every day (with a few exceptions for server outages and the like) for my health.]

But as I said during the GameTap days... it's a biiig lake, and the algae has been "mostly dead" for a looong time - so expecting immediate feedback is probably going to lead only to disappointment. Such is life. The lake lighting project, as I have also said in the past, should be viewed as a "long term" project, measured in months and years, not days and weeks. If that isn't your cup of tea, that's fine, but that's this cup of tea.

The problem is that it doesn't light the lake. As others have said, you don't have anything wired to increase the light level. What people get frustrated over is that they know there is a limit, an average, etc. Some measure is out there that will trigger Algae Light Stage 2.0. What's frustrating is that we have no clue what that is. I'd guess this is/was part of the design, but it's bad design. It wouldn't take any effort for you to say "we need a month of pellet values above X and then maintain pellet values of Y to move the lake light level up." It's not about time, it's about lack of understanding. We know what our impact is (though why there's a difference between pellet and lake points, I'm not sure) but we don't know what the goal is. We're like a blind man being told to fill a glass with a one cup measure. We know what to do, we know it might take a while, but we don't know the crucial goal. That immediately makes ANY amount of time seem long because, like the blind man, we don't know if our month's work filled the glass 40% or 4% or .04%.

Think of it this way, when I linked to the Mechanical Age, I saw a podium with symbols on it and a closed hatch. Immediately I knew both my goal (to get in the hatch) and how to do it (get those symbols right). With Er'cana I know the goal (to get in the factory) and how to do it (the tracks). No matter how you change the setting of presentation of the elements, the good Myst/Uru/general puzzles still have those elements. For example, the Age I think differs the most from the code entry-type puzzle would be Minkata. There the Age (either designed or not) makes it easy to understand the goal because a pit/kiva is located almost at the link-in point. This allows the player to access (spoiler-related) areas where they can make the necessary connections to figure out what they need to do.

I'm glad you're responding to this and I hope there's some change to make this work better (particularly if fans could work on coding new was to display pellet information). I think we need a goal for our efforts or be able to figure out the goal. As it stands, we're still blindly pouring water into the glass.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:03 pm 
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What an interesting discussion we're having here.

mszv suggested RAWA's post could be in-character, but we can all see that RAWA referenced GameTap, so the post is out-of-character. In-character, concepts such as "Myst Online was a game running on GameTap in 2007 and 2008" do not exist. Furthermore, this is an out-of-character forum.

So, I reason that RAWA's post must be taken as an out-of-character statement, and RAWA says that dropping pellets will light the lake.

But RAWA hasn't said exactly how this will happen - as Kaelis said, it could mean the re-exporting of Ae'gura some day - or it could mean the "wiring" that isn't there today may be added someday - or it could mean that Victor will someday declare the lake to be 0.00001% brighter, and most people won't see any change at all but none will have sufficiently sensitive equipment to disprove Victor's position. But all of these ideas focus on the technical.

I've been trying to stay away from analogies lately because I've chosen a few bad ones. But in this case, I think I'm close enough to the mark. (Apologies to Whilyam for swapping analogies, but I think this one is a little truer than the blind man with the glass and water - because we all know the physical properties of a glass, that it cannot be infinitely big, and so we know that eventually the glass will be filled; yet what seems to be disputed here is whether the pellets can or cannot actually light the lake.)

Imagine you have a button in front of you, and I tell you, "If you push this button enough times, I'll give you a treat."

There is no "wiring" to produce the treat when a specific number of presses is reached. All you have is the button, and my observation of the button, and some level of trust in my word.

And that is exactly where we are with the pellets today.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Really cracks me up.

RAWA tells people that, yes, the pellets light the lake.

Others jump up and call him out on it because "It's not wired into the game!"

Big SHMEAL.

NOTHING, in MOUL:a is written in stone as far as the Age's prp files, .fin files, .sdl files and python are concerned.

As has been stated, that can be changed, in very short order. It won't take a massive overhaul to see a difference, even a small one.

So why don't they change it now?
Ah! Lots of reasons.
RAWA has told us that the "Freetime Fairy" does not pay Cyan a lot of visits. That this is a big lake, will take a LOT of pellets, and should be measured in terms of months and years. I'd say that's a very good hint.
Don't forget, when MOUL:a started up, we all had to start at the beginning again. I would assume so did the pellet count for the lake, heh.

What's that? You want to know NOW what the answer is?
Hrmmmm......I thought most people understood, this is a Myst game. Answers may not always be obvious or present themselves. Sometimes, we don't even get a hint to a solution, until something has been done first.
I would think that in this case, X amount of pellets of the right combination have to be dropped first. What X is, is something that only Cyan knows.

So if you want to know what X is; you have to keep dropping pellets, until something happens (wired or not, it is something that can be put in place very quickly. Why should they have that already wired so that you can cheat to figure it out? I think it's pretty cool that there's at least one thing that no one is going to figure out any time soon until it happens. Just like the Markers and the GZ being turned on).

If you're the type of person that has to be "in the know" about everything, and can't stand waiting or not knowing.....:shrug:....then as RAWA said: "It's not your cup of tea."
Deal with it or not. Move on.

If on the other hand you like to do things with the pellets and have fun with it (oh man, all the different things that went on during the GT days: The "Eco Terrorist" thing, the competitions, the Pellet Parties, the "Physics" experiments.....the list goes on and on). Fan's have in the past figured out ways to have fun with pellets and other aspects with MOUL, and none of it was always "wired in".
If that's true, then it is "your cup of tea.".

So should you drop pellets? Again, that's completely up to you. If you have ways to have fun with it, then go for it.
If you feel it's a waste of your time, again, that's fine. The pellets will be waiting for you if you ever want to drop any. They don't care.

Can a blind person tell if a cup is half full? Oh most certainly yes. My uncle has measuring cups with raised notches on them. He has to have his finger in the cup to tell (so it's a good thing he washes his hands when preparing food), but he most certainly can tell if the cup is half full or not.
Can he see everything there is to see? Of course not. He's blind, and has been since Vietnam. Does that keep him from enjoying life?
From what I've observed, he still really enjoys life. He even told me once that being blind means he gets more surprises...heheh. And he likes most surprises.

I guess dropping pellets would be his cup of tea!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Andy, I don't get many visits from the free time fairy either but all it took was a few minutes and I now have the wiring for the fog brightness method sitting here on my hard drive. :wink:
I'm pretty sure it should be good to go into MOUL as is, but of course there is no way I can test it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:28 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
But he didn't say anything more than what we've been told before. Its not been answered, we KNOW there is nothing wired. They're keeping track of numbers, fine... But there's nothing more to it than, one day, Cyan will decide its time to re-export Ae'gura with better lighting.

RAWA, I'd kinda hoped you wouldn't just say that... That's.. well... really disappointing.


Kaelis is absolutely right here... There's nothing in the datafiles to light the lake. In fact, he posted here after I said this in IRC:
Quote:
when RAWA says "pellets light the lake" he means "we're keeping track of pellet drops so we know when we need to get off our a***s and re-export Ae'Gura with better lighting" >_>


That being the case... dropping pellets increases a counter. Cyan watches that counter. At some point, they'll decide to adjust some stuff in Ae'gura and re-export. Probably based on the value of that counter. So dropping pellets *most likely* contributes to the eventual adjustment of the game data files.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:03 pm 
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I'll go back to the source of the fog suggestion:

D'Lanor wrote:
it would be easy to wire them to the cavern's fog brightness settings. ... at least it would do something.

But that's not the story, is it? Now you'd have to justify ICly how the pellets directly affect the fog brightness without a changed light source to account for the brightness. If The Lake and The Fog were considered characters in the story, you would be giving The Fog all of The Lake's lines, or maybe it's the tail wagging the dog. I'd rather not cheat the story just to do something.

Meanwhile, the lake point numbers continue to get published. That's more feedback than we were getting at first. Things are not so futile as some would have us believe.

I think I'll invite Zardoz's pony out for a cup of tea. Or Kool-Aid... if it doesn't like tea. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Pellets don't light lakes....people do!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:22 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
I'll go back to the source of the fog suggestion:

D'Lanor wrote:
it would be easy to wire them to the cavern's fog brightness settings. ... at least it would do something.

But that's not the story, is it? Now you'd have to justify ICly how the pellets directly affect the fog brightness without a changed light source to account for the brightness. If The Lake and The Fog were considered characters in the story, you would be giving The Fog all of The Lake's lines, or maybe it's the tail wagging the dog. I'd rather not cheat the story just to do something.

But then if Cyan were to do it this way it would be ok, right? :wink:

Anyway, since the lake directly reflects the fog color above it would be brighter as well. You'll never be able to tell the chicken from the egg. Don't forget that just about anything in a game engine is smoke and mirrors.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:26 pm 
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andylegate wrote:
Why should they have that already wired so that you can cheat to figure it out?


Well, exactly. I wish I'd had the brains to say that. Thanks, Andy.

And oh look, RK01 has hit the nail on the head again. "Pellets don't light lakes...people do!" People, that is, who are willing to go along with the idea that someday their efforts will be rewarded with a lit lake, and do not take the absence of "wiring", or their own lack of trust in the game's creators, or their own belief that the game should have died long ago, as evidence that there is no point in going on doing it.

So. Try to light the lake, or don't. But we now know, without a probable possible shadow of doubt, that (as long as Cyan and Uru continue in existence) if we keep dropping pellets the lake will be lit. So I think that makes it worth trying.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:27 pm 
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There is something very special about the fact that the current community project has been going for so incredibly long!

I'm not going to claim this as the gospel truth, but I guess the fact that putting Pellets in the lake "does light the lake" means that if Cyan ever kickstart development again the contributions we make now will impact on the lake's brightness. I'd also speculate that the pellet number was carried over between incarnations (as it's not exactly hard for Cyan to write down a number and keep it safe for the next resurrection of the Uru code.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:44 pm 
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Nye_Sigismund wrote:
...I guess the fact that putting Pellets in the lake "does light the lake" means that if Cyan ever kickstart development again the contributions we make now will impact on the lake's brightness. I'd also speculate that the pellet number was carried over between incarnations (as it's not exactly hard for Cyan to write down a number and keep it safe for the next resurrection of the Uru code.)

Um...

Didn't I already...

Gosh, that's brilliant!

:P

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:07 am 
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A few more clarifications:

1) My previous post was not in character.

2) My previous post wasn't intended to give "new" information, just confirm that previous information I had given is still accurate and refute the inaccurate information that the pellets "don't do anything".

3) That said, if baking pellets isn't your thing, don't do it. It's ok. No guilt necessary or wanted.

4) If contributing to a long term, community project is your thing, or if you just like trying to find the ultimate pellet recipe, great! Here's your chance. The pellets matter even now, despite the claims to the contrary.

5) If you're doing it because you want/expect/desire a large reward on the level of when the Great Zero was first calibrated, I'll save you some disappointment - don't bother. The lake lighting falls more into the "The journey is the reward" category. Again, if that's not your thing, feel free to ignore the pellets. No harm done. Just please don't tell people that "they don't do anything", because that is not the case.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:12 pm 
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RAWA wrote:
A few more clarifications:

1) My previous post was not in character.

2) My previous post wasn't intended to give "new" information, just confirm that previous information I had given is still accurate and refute the inaccurate information that the pellets "don't do anything".

3) That said, if baking pellets isn't your thing, don't do it. It's ok. No guilt necessary or wanted.

4) If contributing to a long term, community project is your thing, or if you just like trying to find the ultimate pellet recipe, great! Here's your chance. The pellets matter even now, despite the claims to the contrary.

5) If you're doing it because you want/expect/desire a large reward on the level of when the Great Zero was first calibrated, I'll save you some disappointment - don't bother. The lake lighting falls more into the "The journey is the reward" category. Again, if that's not your thing, feel free to ignore the pellets. No harm done. Just please don't tell people that "they don't do anything", because that is not the case.

Thanks.


Hey! Can we try stocking the lake with Catfish and Bass? Or would we just be feeding some unknown "Lake Monster"?

heheheheh.

Be cool though: later on, catch of catfish and bass, have a fish fry down at the Ferry Terminal.

"Well sometimes I've been known to use a piece of old hot dog for bait when it comes to catfish. But of late, I've been using a piece of Er'cana pellet, soaked in soy sauce. Them durn fish nail it every time!"

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