It is currently Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:30 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 469 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 ... 32  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:15 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 902
Egon wrote:
ddb174 wrote:
Just as their is no real canonical bread recipe, and no-one who defines it, so too does Rawa not define canon.


But, but, but, but this,
kaelisebonrai wrote:
This is on the level of "RAWA is wrong!" (about canon)


People. I have strange sensation of déjà vu.
Thread "Let's talk about ways to improve Uru as an MMO", again going into direction of "That is cannon", or "how should cannon be treated" and stuff like that. Just start a new thread about that.

Back to the topic, but with cannon in mind:
How can we improve Uru as an MMO?
Well even among those who repeating like parrots "to late! it's a cannon", there are some who do acknowledge the obvious flaw of URU. That URU cannon needs a cleaning, fixing etc. Can we do it? If You talk only about official, Cyan cannon of D'ni universe, then of course not. Cyan would have to do it but they are far to reluctant to do it.
But if You include future possible shards, then ... well there is no such thing as "non-official cannon". Either something is cannon, or fan-fiction. So since we cannot fix official cannon, one must do one of two things: accept it as it is, or ignore it. Whatever You do: don't brag about it.
Yes it is official forum, so one might expect that official cannon would be underline at every occasion, but why, I ask WHY do we have to be ponded to submission by "THE BOOK OF ONLY TRUE INTERPRETATION by R.A.W.A.", every, single time someone mentions even slightly possibility of different point of view on the Myst/URU history/story.
That I don't know. But this is also another field on which we can improve URU (or adlest, in this case, community of URU):
Official cannon - either accept it or ignore it. And then accept the fact that not everyone did the same thing which You did.


When there is a server I can use for moul, and the blender export tools are ready, I will run a canon reboot shard, as I personally do not like the way the official canon has gone. However, it will not be canon. It will /my/ personal version of the d'ni universe, but it will not be the official canon.

Here, take a look at this.

http://inkwell.grey-skies.net/articles/ ... an-atheist

RAWA really does define the Myst franchise's canon. Or at least its hard canon. =) There's lots of wiggle-room, though.

PS: Actually, there is non-official canon, its generally called "fanon" or "Fan-canon" =)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:00 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Tigard, OR
You got your fanfic butter in my canonocolate!

:lol:

I will put my hand up as another person who isn't totally happy with the way canon has gone. However, it is my feeling that starting up a canon reboot shard, or shards, doesn't fit into the category of "How can we improve Uru as an MMO?" because it doesn't improve upon it.

A fanfic shard may give you the opportunity to play out your own vision of how the story will be, but ... there are going to be relatively few people who care. Of those who do care, some will probably start their own fanfic shards because they have their own ideas too. Some of those people might still have the time to play on your shard so it isn't a total loss - but the remaining potential audience will be likewise divided, some will play on multiple shards, but others may only have time or interest for one. And inevitably you'll have someone who disagrees with you over the way you're running your story.... and once you boot the troublemakers :wink:, I think all you'll have is an audience of yourself, Mary-Sue, and a few good friends. And all the other fanfic shards will have the same.

The only thing that binds our stories together presently is Cyan's control of canon. It creates a framework which is restraining, yes, and has some unfortunate aspects to it - and yet offers the largest cohesive audience, and it is not too confining. I would prefer to work within that framework and improve upon what we have, rather than try to create something separate and pull people away from what has already been built.

There are ways to do this - I've had a really good idea for "flexing the canon" for a while now, that I just haven't had time to initiate.

_________________
MOULa KI: 26838 | Prologue Videos | Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!
Click here for social/game profiles


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:40 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 902
Marten, I know enough people who are interested in a canon reboot shard to make it worth my while. =P Fanfic shards will happen, and will make things better, and don't worry about division as not everyone will want to go to all the same shards.

Shards will rise and fall of their own merit. =)

"canon reboot" = Resetting canon to the choru period, btw ;)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:37 am
Posts: 278
Okay, here's a radical idea (since I still don't know if anyone understood what I was saying in the last two posts).

How can we improve Uru as an MMO?

Let's say we can't. Some good ideas have been thrown up in the course of discussion, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of a consensus arising, just the usual acrimonious throwing of brickbats. if there is any kind of strong thread of opinion running through the discussion, it's that Uru isn't that great as an MMO anyway, that its engine is out of date and would be too tough to improve, that the gameplay doesn't really lend itself to multiplayer gaming, that the Ages released during the GT period were less than ideal, and that we all have different ideas of what constitutes canon and are willing to defend those ideas to the last drop of someone else's virtual blood.

So let's blue-sky ourselves a future in which Uru stops being an MMO altogether. Instead, we go back to the offline game, and make fan Ages for that using whatever tools are available. We'd lose the community aspect of gameplay, but then that was never huge anyway; groups of friends used to meet in the Cavern and still do, clubs and associations formed, but a wider community never actually cohered in-game, only out here. It would mean that the forums, this one and the DRC one, would assume full status as part of the game, since any discussion between players would have to take place there, and Cyan could use them to communicate with the player base as they do now. All new Ages would be single-player, making them much easier to design, and each player would be the sole explorer in his Uruverse, which is practically what happens at the moment only without the new Ages. (I'm aware that a similar situation to this may actually exist somewhere, but I couldn't possibly comment. Anyway, this would be official.)

Seriously, how badly do we all want Uru to be an MMO? Badly enough to agree on a definition of canon? Badly enough to put up with its flaws? Badly enough to stop chewing over the flavourless remnants of past failures? Badly enough for more than seven people to be in the city on a Saturday night? Badly enough to be an actual community, rather than a permanent argument?

I'm interested to know, because it seems to me that while people in here obviously care very deeply about something, it's not entirely clear whether they all care about the same thing, or if that thing is actually the thing that is Uru.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 am
Posts: 282
Zander, I don't understand what we would gain by making Uru 100% offline. Sure, there may be less arguments as players will be prevented from interacting in-game and sharing the same virtual world, but that hardly sounds like a solution to Uru's problems, IMHO.

By the way, I've seen many people argue (even on these forums) that Uru is not so great as a single-player puzzle game (which could be one of the reasons why some new explorers don't even care to look for other players).

P.S. The community aspect of gameplay may have never been "huge", whatever that means, but it is what kept Uru alive for all these years. :-)

_________________
Simone - KI#1001138
Please avoid drinking the lake water.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 pm
Posts: 2598
Location: Israel
I don't think the solution is that Uru would be an offline game. But I don't think the solution is that Uru would be an MMO too.

I think Uru should be a smaller-scale multiplayer game. All of the game is "offline", private. Only the 'hoods are public, and then there's also Ae'gura which has many multiplayer instances. And from there you can invite friends to anywhere in the game. It's not as massive as an MMO, but still has the community aspect.

_________________
Previously known as "The stranger"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:37 am
Posts: 278
I was just throwing the idea in to broaden the discussion a bit. I quite like ThedStranger's idea as a middle path.

As you know, I don't believe Uru will ever be truly "massive," because its appeal is (demonstrably, and I think not because of its faults but because of its nature) so limited, and if it has to be "massive" in order to succeed as a multiplayer game, then that would be a blind alley. If it can be multiplayer without being "massive," then I'm all for that. If it can't, then I'd rather it stayed alive as a single-player game but with the possibility of growth through fan Ages.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:08 am
Posts: 1991
Location: Greenville, SC
ThedStranger wrote:
I don't think the solution is that Uru would be an offline game. But I don't think the solution is that Uru would be an MMO too.

I think Uru should be a smaller-scale multiplayer game. All of the game is "offline", private. Only the 'hoods are public, and then there's also Ae'gura which has many multiplayer instances. And from there you can invite friends to anywhere in the game. It's not as massive as an MMO, but still has the community aspect.


That's the way I remember it being offered when it was first announced... I believe it was supposed to come with Yeesha's journey when you bought it, then when you found the hood/city book it would link you to that area with other people there, too. I'm *assuming* that the later ages were supposed to come out as pay-as-you-wish addons. (Perhaps they intended some, like the Delin and Tsogal "rest" ages to be freebies.) The game would have been peer-to-peer basically for inviting people to your ages and server-based for public areas.

Perhaps now (read this as "when and if they release the server code") it could be made where neighborhoods could be hosted by the actual groups like they were in Until Uru, but you could still link to the main cavern on Cyan's system.

_________________
Can you withstand the gaze of the Eye of Eternity?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1812
Location: California
Zander, you seem to be basing an opinion of what the community is doing or wants based on what 50 posters have written. And of those 50 several are people we know seldom agree no matter what the subject and several are not open to new ideas nor are they flexible. That there is no consensus among this group says little about the community what consensus they might come to.

While the OP starts with some problems and grips we all know and provides a set of possible solutions many of us have read before… and a few people bring up some new aspects, at least that I haven’t heard before… no one is talking beyond opinion about why one way or the other is better. Well, there is a bit about what fits story better… or makes a better story. But, no one really lays out an organized discussion the community can move forward on with why a solution is better. Well, JWP and few point out the difficulty with implementing some changes.

In fact the basic idea of what is better has not even been decided. Is bigger, as in more players, better? Or is keeping Open Uru as much like MOULa as possible with some minor story tweaks and instancing cleanups and few concurrent players better? Or some other concept...

What are the foundation points that are disagreed on and why would one choose to go with one solution over another? Other than personal preference? And do we really think our personal preferences are all that popular with the rest of the gaming world or even our tiny Uru community? What is there that would move this group to any measure of consensus? Or the majority to work in even the same general direction?

There is also a faction that has pretty well decided how they would like things to be. I suspect some are already working to achieve their goal. But, even they offer no reasons other than their preference for their choices. Fortunately open source will offer them the possibility to manifest those dreams. I do think there will be a long time where we live with the Cyan servers (game & testing) and we’ll all have to co-exist and compromise with Cyan. So, some level of agreement might advance the game faster.

But, none are really talking about what works in the gaming world or why and which of those things might be good or bad for Uru. User Interface, chat console, multiplayer puzzles… some of us think ‘A’ or ‘B’ is good but beyond preference have little to offer on why the rest of us should go along with them…

If we are the ones that are to keep the Cyan/Myst style and may be even improve on it… shouldn’t we be looking beyond our own personal preferences, looking at the realities of game play, and actually testing ideas ?

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:25 pm
Posts: 158
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales
1) Fix the bugs
2) Fix the intro
3) Fix the KI
4) Modify instancing to be more intuitive
5) (If we can) improve the graphics, especially of areas like the Cleft which have very low-res textures in places.
6) Add really good fanmade ages

That's the basic frame for short-term work. Later...

7) Create server events, perhaps on some common shard, that help push fanon along. Orchestrate the repairing of ages, for example.

Essentially, make the game worth logging into every day to check the new content, talk about the latest fanon happenings and whatnot. If Cyan then turn around in five years and go "okay, Myst VI is on the horizon, I'm afraid a lot of what's happened doesn't fit with our evolution of the canon so we can't incorporate it", we shrug it off.

We however need the source code to do much of the above.

_________________
I am a member of Team OSCAR. I make content for MOULa. Help OSCAR here: http://forums.openuru.org/viewforum.php?f=103


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:37 am
Posts: 278
Nalates: I'm doing what anyone who samples public opinion on any issue does--I'm basing my opinion of the community's opinion on those in the community who have given theirs. I can't divine what those who don't post want. Decisions are taken (or not taken) by those who show up. When open source happens, those who take part and give it its ultimate shape may be an entirely different group from those who post here, though I expect some of us will be involved, and the dynamic may be completely different.

But you make a good point, in that we haven't even arrived at a consensus of what we mean by "improve." There are a lot of little things that could be fixed, and Nye_Sigismund lists some of them*, but will that really "improve" Uru "as an MMO"? A long-dead horse that gets repeatedly walloped here is "let's not make Uru more like Second Life/There/EVE/Guild Wars/any other game" and yet those are the MMOs that have been successful. Which is another thing that makes me think that MMO might not be the only way, or even the best way, to go.

*Though (there I go again) it's worth bearing in mind the possibility that depending on what part or parts of Uru are actually released as open source, (6) in Nye_Sigismund's list may be the first, or even the only, improvement we are able, or allowed, to make.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1812
Location: California
Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
I'm doing what anyone who samples public opinion on any issue does…

Of course. I just don’t consider the group in this thread particularly representative of the community.

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
A long-dead horse that gets repeatedly walloped here is "let's not make Uru more like Second Life/There/EVE/Guild Wars/any other game" and yet those are the MMOs that have been successful.


Many people jump to that idea when someone suggests a feature in another game. They miss the intention is to make Uru better not more like the other game, which is way over simplification and shallow thinking. But, that seems to be human nature. It happens in all games. SL is going crazy over Linden Lab and others saying SL needs better social networking tools, which I think too. The panic is, OMG U R GOING TO TURN IT INTO FACEBOOK… :lol: which just shows how far they missed the point.

I think the majority of us believe Uru could be better. What we haven’t agreed on and it seems most don’t consider is what we mean by better. Turning Uru into WoW or SL is not making it better IMO. However, both of those have better groups and easier ways for people to connect and interact in world. While I strongly believe that better social tools will help Uru’s popularity, I can’t know that Uru being more popular will make it better. I can quote recent studies of SL and Facebook and other popular games to show that good ways to connect socially in game is consistently the most influential single factor on new player retention and high concurrent player participation. But that still does not answer if we think bigger, more popular is better.

The term ‘better’ is way too subjective. It means different things to different people. For many it means leaving things as they are and just adding ages. That leaves us talking at cross purposes. I believe that Uru needs to be popular to generate funding, attract new users, and interest people in building ages, all items I think are needed for Uru to survive long term. Others think it will survive just fine as a small niche game. Staying small or getting big are two directions of thinking about Uru. But, neither side provides convincing reasons to the other side to change their opinion. We tend to provide our opinions and speculations, stop there and never work toward a consensus.

Small groups have decided these issues. They are off working on their ideas and implementing their plans. While this somewhat divides the community, it does provide the freedom for many to experiment with their ideas. The problem I see is that those who’s ideas don’t work well with general human nature will fall into small niche versions of the game. Those that do work will likely be more popular. This is a somewhat self correcting method but inefficient. So, this all just boils down to how much we learn about game design and how much planning we do. Until we take the learning and planning serious and provide more objective reasons for decisions and methods to decide… we are just offering opinions and going our own directions.

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:57 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 am
Posts: 2266
On a canon reboot -- Star Trek did it, officially, with the latest movie, a wonderous thing. I could see the same thing happening to Uru, though not, I suppose, officially. Space and time warps, alternate threads, however you define it -- works for me!

Personally, I'd like Uru to still be an MMO. I'm also amenable to going to different sites/servers for different versions of Uru. I don't think we are going to see anything much in the way of changes until people can, officially, host servers and offer new ages.

The things that seem to be working (from my informal observations) are OHBs stuff and events, though sadly, I had to miss LCs Silk Road Journey. Events, as in parties and music, do work better in Second Life (my opinion) though I try to make it to the ones in Uru that I'm interested in.

I define "success" -- some (admittedly small) number of people go to the event, the thing, and people talk about it on the forum. There are people, the place isn't empty.

Here's a question -- are people still visiting Uru? I don't get there that much. How is it going nowadays, is the city busy, are the neighborhoods busy?

_________________
mszv, amarez in Uru, other online games, never use mszv anymore, would like to change it
Blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:17 pm
Posts: 270
Agreed, Canon Reboots can be done and done well. Retconning has been done for years with various degrees of success. My own personal stance would not be a reboot but taking the universe where it is and fixing it piece by piece.

Many people have different stances some dream of a Yeeshaless Cavern, others want a Cavern that is unchanging perfectly representing the Spiritual Journey of D'ni. Some hate Instances, orthers think Hoods should be called Bevins.

The truly best method is having all the Shards/new canon in a place that can be shared by all. Everyone will find a place or places to spend and enjoy. And as has been suggested before Cyan can distribute expansions which the Shards could then add/alter/ignore as they choose increasing their diversity.

And if I can get enough money myself when the time came I'd set up a server myself. Anyone know how much one of those run?

_________________
Image

Thelonius "Prof" Higginsbottom

member of the Guild of Calamitous Intent

"I invented the term the Bevin Generation do I get a spot in Mystlore?"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:39 pm
Posts: 502
Location: Gonna find me a bahro and gonna name it Dave...
The best way to help right now would be, if you have the ability, to build ages. Greet new people, keep them in the cavern. If someone asks a question, answer it. Don't give up on the dream. Keep asking how you can keep the cavern alive.

_________________
KayT- 00261852 (previously KT, gametap edition)
Lint Roller- 01050459
Net 6- 01488293
E.G.O.- 02129796
T.L.N.- ?

I VISITED AHNONAY AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY TREE SHIRT


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 469 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 ... 32  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: