The Guilds Revisited

Zenoc2 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:19 am **Posts:** 49

Excellent article on the Greeters, Whil. I just talked to a member down in the Cavern who "left" the guild, and his complaints line up pretty closely with your evaluation of the situation. As for me, I'll be supporting this New Players hood any way I can.

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:09 pm

Whilyam wrote:

Guild of Greeters

Only one point with which I disagreed:

Whilyam wrote:

Take criticism, even “destructive criticism,”

IMO, it was constructive criticism and this line could undermine or negate some of the points made.

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

Tai: I meant in general, not just with my post. Also, while you and I may think it's constructive, I'm sure there are others who do not agree.

Zenoc2 · **Joined:** Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:19 am **Posts:** 49

Actually, I think he did mean destructive criticism, as in "criticism that brings the person on the receiving end down instead of building them up." Even if it ends up being hurtful, if that's the kind of criticism that you're getting from a new player, either he/she is a troll, or something is wrong.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Whilyam.

My point still stands, though.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:29 pm

I would like to have seen an equally in-depth review of the Guild of Writers. But despite being a guild you are intimately familiar with, your disclaimer notwithstanding, it got the briefest and least effective review so far.

PaladinOfKaos · **Joined:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:55 pm **Posts:** 625

Part of that is because the GoW is very ad-hoc, and has been throughout it's lifetime and even before then (Age Builders and H'uru). People make ages, or tools, and they share them. Not much else goes on, and there's not a lot of internal politics involved.

The guild is working on better communication and community interaction, so hopefully the next time Whil makes an entry on us he'll have more to say.

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

JWPlatt wrote:

I would like to have seen an equally in-depth review of the Guild of Writers. But despite being a guild you are intimately familiar with, your disclaimer notwithstanding, it got the briefest and least effective review so far.

Quite simply I notice fewer problems in the GoW. As for why, as branan mentioned the GoW is very "ad hoc." As someone noticed after one of my articles, I tend to find issues with a Guild's leadership. I would argue that the GoW, with no real hierarchy, doesn't have the issues brought about by a "leader."

However, I think what you're really saying here is that my article did not address your concerns with the GoW. This is to be expected because I don't find evidence for your concerns.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:58 pm

There actually is a hierarchical structure:
http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... f=47&t=838

Although Branan notes in one of his posts last year:

Branan wrote:

We don't have a structure here. We all know that... What we do have is a rather scary structure document. Read it over. It implies (and even specifies) a lot of authority and control that's simply not exercised, and if it ever was exercised there'd be a mutiny...

http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... =49&t=4336

I just saw it as a lost opportunity for you to discuss all this in as much detail as you've discussed other guilds, especially coming so close before renewed discussions about revising your structure and appointing new positions. A quick search on threads containing "hierarchy"shows other discussions on the topic dating back to 2007, so it seems to be an issue that has been a controversial struggle over the years. It's actually good to see what Branan and OHB are doing, and it would have been very timely to discuss it.

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

Shorter: The GoW has a hierarchy de jure, but no hierarchy de facto.

Regardless of what that topic says, there really is no hierarchy. Come into the Writers chatroom and say "take me to your leader" and you're just going to get laughed at. At best you have the concept of Guild Councilors. Branan's quote you cited sumarizes my view of the "power" too. The jobs are informal and the "establishment" wants them to remain so in order to create a more enjoyable experience for casual writers. In short, anyone who takes themselves too seriously in their position will be flogged.

That's not a hierarchy in my view. Most other Guilds (that exist) have a stereotypical hierarchy resembling the D'ni structures: The top person is a Grand Master with Guild Masters below him/her, etc. While it can feel good in some cases to have that (and it certainly helps the ego to say "I was promoted to Guild Captain!") I think that sort of structure lacks much meaning for the modern Guilds since the titles are arbitrary (what does the Grand Master DO besides wave his/her scepter around?).

The reason I didn't get into this is: A. I don't see it as an issue for the Guild, and B. it's a more general issue not tied to a single Guild. What this will turn into is a post on general Uru politics because this really gets down to core issues this community has yet to work around. Either way, that's why issues like this were not brought up in the GoW article.

Leonardo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:15 am

Whilyam wrote:

(what does the Grand Master DO besides wave his/her scepter around?).

I could strongly object this point...there is a whole load of things a GM does (*), this doesn't mean you can see them. There is always work to do for someone that is willing to completely fullfill his position's tasks.

(*) Maybe things that are not needed within the GoW but that are needed elsewhere. As I already commented on your GoW Article, each groups has different needs for coordination and cooperation and for sure the GoW needs really little coordination between its members, and on the other side GoG and GoMe need a lot of it.

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

Leonardo wrote:

Whilyam wrote:

(what does the Grand Master DO besides wave his/her scepter around?).

I could strongly object this point...there is a whole load of things a GM does (*), this doesn't mean you can see them. There is always work to do for someone that is willing to completely fullfill his position's tasks.

(*) Maybe things that are not needed within the GoW but that are needed elsewhere. As I already commented on your GoW Article, each groups has different needs for coordination and cooperation and for sure the GoW needs really little coordination between its members, and on the other side GoG and GoMe need a lot of it.

I'm referring to the name. The title "Grand Master" doesn't tell people what the person holding that position does. Having more explanatory titles like those of the GoW ensures people know who's in charge of what.

Leonardo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:55 am

ah, I see. Didn't realize you were just speaking of the name

Rudolfson · **Posted:** Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:21 pm

About changing back the 'redacted' thing. It is the 'Guild' that should be redacted. A guild is no guild if it is not given authority and monopoly within its area from above, be it King or senate that lends the power. Anyway. The Guild system in RL was bad for sound business, and in the story of D'ni it was very destructive. Why cling to the old symbols of power? Well I guess we are all fools and like a fancy suit.

OHB · **Joined:** Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am **Posts:** 1247

Rudolfson wrote:

...like a fancy suit.

But the fancy suits are the best part!!!

Leonardo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:06 pm

Rudolfson wrote:

A guild is no guild if it is not given authority and monopoly within its area from above, be it King or senate that lends the power.

You forget the most basic of all the rules about power and authority: power and authority is elected and granted from the bottom primarily...then it can be given from the above. It's not important that the King/Senate/someone gives you a place in the system if the population recognizes you as having that place.

It's the basic rule of how kings and leaders positions were born at the beginning of history.
(oh I love when apparently useless things prove them useful: this was taken from the lessons about politics learned from the Wheel of Time series *-*)

Quote:

Anyway. The Guild system in RL was bad for sound business, and in the story of D'ni it was very destructive. Why cling to the old symbols of power? Well I guess we are all fools and like a fancy suit.

guild is only a name. The current guild system is so open that it has nothing to do with the historic and D'ni ones. Guilds exist but if someone wants to create a group doing exactly the same thing he is free to do so.

The Guilds Revisited

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