A taste of my own medicine.

OHB · **Joined:** Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am **Posts:** 1247

Tai'lahr wrote:

In a response to my e-mail about this, RAWA pointedly used the word "crackers" where I had used the word "hackers" as if to correct any misconceptions I might have that the event was sanctioned.

The only emails I'm in possession of are once between the Grey Hats and Cyan. I cannot comment on any other emails.

Dachannien · **Joined:** Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:48 am **Posts:** 216

I guess I don't get the problem here.

Some folks have put in extra effort to learn how things work, and in the process, they've gained the ability to fiddle with MOUL. Cyan has embraced this, so long as those people stay within the guidelines that Cyan has set, so that the game isn't upset for people who want to experience the Uru story without a strange colored sky or eight billion Eddies rolling around.

Is the problem that the people with this power are ruining the vision of Uru? I don't see how. The entire point of the HoI and FH was to keep these hacks in a place separate from the rest of the game. And Cyan apparently is satisfied with this solution, as long as the hacks stay there.

Is the problem that the people with this power are "elite" because they are endorsed by Cyan? I don't think that's a fair statement of what Cyan said. They provided sandboxes for everyone to use, with the expectation that in the HoI, people would act civilly to each other with respect to sharing the space, and with the further expectation that this voodoo would stay in the sandboxes.

Is the problem that the people with this power are "elite" because they are able to fiddle with MOUL? Well, the same knowledge can be acquired by anyone through the same means that the current fiddlers acquired it - through research and experimentation. There's no more validity to this argument than there is to saying that airplane pilots are "elite" because they know how to fly a plane, when anybody can take flying lessons if they're willing to spend the time and money.

Is the problem that the people with this power are "elite" not because they have the knowledge of fiddling with MOUL, but rather, because they aren't sharing it with everyone? Well.... maybe. But there are two problems with this argument, one logical and one practical. The logical problem is that there's no real reason why an expectation of sharing is valid. In other words, why should the fiddlers share their knowledge with others? Why should those others have a right to demand this knowledge from the fiddlers? The practical problem is this: the knowledge involved in fiddling with MOUL takes a lot of effort to acquire, and most of the people who would be interested in causing real problems with MOUL are likely interested in instant gratification with no work (trolls, script kiddies, 4channers, etc.). By keeping this knowledge to themselves, the fiddlers are essentially preventing the knowledge from being used to harm MOUL, and it's not clear that any benefits from sharing would outweigh the potential risks.

Perhaps this entire question should be turned around, and the people complaining of elitism should be asked what they would hope to contribute by having equal participation in these hacks. I don't see that the answer of "nothing, but I should be able to based on principle" as being valid, because if principles were so important, those people would put in the effort required to put themselves inside the realm of the elites whom they instead choose to despise.

(By the way, I purposely avoided using the term "Gray Hats" above, because that term appears to refer to a particular group of people - but Cyan's endorsement of the HoI/FH idea wasn't limited just to those people. By using the term carelessly, I think it needlessly perpetuates the myth that the Gray Hats have special permissions that nobody else can acquire (aside from hood ownership, which I think we decided in a different thread wasn't really that critical to utilizing HoI/FH anyway).)

Lontahv · **Joined:** Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:51 pm **Posts:** 265

As a response to the whole elitism topic somewhat earlier in the thread, I'll try to explain my position on it.

Myst has always been about puzzles; it's been about using your head to get to the next place. When I first played Myst and Riven I sometimes got very confused by a puzzle, this led to days of attempting to solve the puzzle. I held (and still hold) to the rule that I would never use cheats unless I felt I had to--when I couldn't even make a dent in the problem after days of brain-racking. I'm probably not alone in this, as many of the people here are die-hard puzzle fans like myself, the pleasure is in the solving (as well as the reward of course!). When we play Myst for the first time, we all start at the beginning. We must then work through the puzzles to get to the end. Similarly, being experienced enough to do some hacks is not at the beginning of the hacking-game but partway into it. Does it anger me when there are other hackers who are farther through the game? Not really, why should it? They've solved more puzzles than I have, it's only fair that they would be farther along in the game.

Everyone who has a computer has the ability to learn hacking. Is it easy to start? It depends; if you already can program it will be easier. It took me about 5 years of playing around with the Plasma engine to get to where I am now. It's not a race, it's a game that we're all at different places in. Some people will choose to play this game, while others will have no interest in it. However, those who do not play the hacking game should not complain that they are less experienced. It's like expecting to finish Riven without ever installing it or showing interest in it.

Nalates · **Posted:** Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:57 am

Elite, elitist… There seems to be some confusion as to who is what and what various speakers/authors mean when using the terms.

There are people that are elite programmers just as there are elite forces in the military. It is a matter of knowledge and ability that makes them elite. Give props where props are due.

When one speaks or writes of an elitist another factor comes into play, the speaker/writer’s motives and intention. The term elitist is often used as the term racist is used; to control a conversation or debate and elicit a kneejerk reaction, generally a tactic to stop others from thinking and manipulate them. It is also a precise description of a known behavior. I’ll repeat. It’s about behavior and belief not ability and knowledge. The listener/reader is responsible for deciding how the word is being used and deciding on the speaker/author’s motives.

Motive is not part of the defining criteria for an elitist. Belief is part of the defining criteria. Does someone believe they deserve special privileges because of their knowledge, ability, or position? If so, they are well on their way to being an elitist. It is typical for elitists to attempt to stifle opposing ideas based on what they consider their superior knowledge.

When the motive is to avoid breaking the game and such avoidance means some level of knowledge is required, it is just rational behavior. An example is requiring a minimum age before allowing one to drive on public roads. People with driver’s licenses may or may not be elitists. Having the driver’s license is not the determining criteria. That grey hats have demonstrated some ability and are allowed to do something is not the criterion that determines whether they are elitists or not. How they use that privilege over time will be the determining criterion.

While some people may feel some grey hats have previously behaved in ways that already establish their behavior that is not what is being brought up in this thread. If poor behavior is exhibited by such suspects, it will get handled. Until then, they are innocent until proven otherwise. If Cyan chooses to allow a group of people to experiment with a couple of instances of the neighborhoods, that is Cyan’s choice. Time will tell if they made a good or bad decision and whether we have elitists or just an elite group.

Dachannien · **Joined:** Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:48 am **Posts:** 216

Nalates wrote:

Elite, elitist… There seems to be some confusion as to who is what and what various speakers/authors mean when using the terms.

The reason I used the term "elite" rather than "elitist" is because the only people who think that the elite are actually elitist are those people who are making the original complaints of elitism. I haven't seen or read anything to make me think that the elite in this case actually feel that they are innately more special than anyone else, and labeling them as "elitist" would be unfair.

mszv · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 am **Posts:** 2266

I think it's wonderful, something changing in Uru, even if it's not a new age, or a continuation of the story, or new puzzles, though I'm not a big puzzle person. Maybe I'll even get to interact with a Bahro.

It might even bring me back to the cavern. Right now I only come for the occasional event. I haven't even been able to bring myself to do all the ages, this go around. I don't take pleasure in doing and redoing the ages, since the experience of doing them is exactly the same, every time. I can only reread the book so many times.

On the show, darn I missed it.

On waiting for Cyan to give permission -- I don't know anything about the discussions between RAWA and the grey hats. But, from my observations, Cyan has always been glacially slow on doing anything. Wait, "slow" implies movement -- let's say, immobile. We still don't have open source Uru. I know, Cyan doesn't have resources (and I really believe that). Even if Cyan has good reasons, if you wait for them to do something, you wait forever. Historically, it's always been better to take the initiative, because, and I'm not trying to be mean here -- Cyan will do nothing. After that little flurry of stuff when Cyan announced that people could make content, then the announcements about open source Uru -- nothing.

So Uru has nothing new coming from Cyan. Uru is mostly static, but there are some small wonderful changes, done by OHB and company.

And no one needs to go to the new hoods. What could be better? You never have to see it.

I'm still waiting for The Fun House to be a public neighborhood. And I can't wait to see how the event Hood of Illusion planenrs figure out how to notify people when the Hood of Illusions is having something new happen. That might even get me to logon to Uru every couple of days, if I'm going to get messages on events.

So -- all good for me.
-------------------------

I'm going to address the "special treatment" thing. It always annoyed me when there was a story thing that involved players (even the excellent Zardoz), not because they got singled out, but because the restof us got nothing. I don't play Uru so I can read about what happened to someone else. Now, if Uru would have been filled, crammed with new stuff, new story, new interactions, new things, things that all players could experience, then having individual players get a special story thing or interaction from Cyan -- that would have been fine, interesting, swell. I would have enjoyed reading about what other people were experiencing if I was experiencing something new myself. And of course, goes without saying, this new stuff should have been available at all days, all times of the day or night.

Now for players having events -- I'm more forgiving on times, though I recommend that some events done by the grey hats be done at times that are favorable for the people not living in the Americas.

Carl Palmner · **Joined:** Tue May 30, 2006 5:45 am **Posts:** 183

mszv wrote:

I'm going to address the "special treatment" thing. It always annoyed me when there was a story thing that involved players (even the excellent Zardoz), not because they got singled out, but because the restof us got nothing. I don't play Uru so I can read about what happened to someone else. Now, if Uru would have been filled, crammed with new stuff, new story, new interactions, new things, things that all players could experience, then having individual players get a special story thing or interaction from Cyan -- that would have been fine, interesting, swell. I would have enjoyed reading about what other people were experiencing if I was experiencing something new myself. And of course, goes without saying, this new stuff should have been available at all days, all times of the day or night.

I think that's the usual source of resentment. I feel fairly certain that the flack Rils and Reteltee had to deal with in GT MO:UL was mainly from people who had got bored and were jealous--i.e. they wanted to be the ones on the Negilahn trip with Sharper, or to be in the guilds meeting.

Re: the general resentment some have expressed here about Cyan's slow movement--try to remember that Cyan is a company, and if they want to survive as a company, they have to focus on things that make a profit. Uru doesn't, so by necessity it has to receive a low priority. Right now, Cyan's priorities are:

1. iPod stuff.
2, Make it 1994 again, through science or magic.
3. Magiquest
4. Everything else
5. Uru

...and that's the way it will probably stay, since Uru just doesn't make money.

mszv · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 am **Posts:** 2266

Carl, I already said that there was a reason for Cyan being slow or immobile.

But -- a couple of things
-- you announce something and then you never report on the status. Good thing?
-- you say you are going to do something and then you don't deliver. Good thing?
-- you annoy your fans by all this. Good thing?

I understand the reasons, but you don't get a pass because you are a company trying to make money. I understand how the company world works, quite well actually. It's just not good to announce something and then, when people are waiting, say nothing, also do nothing. How about you say the truth -- look, odds are good we are never going to do open source. There, just say it, wouldn't that be better?

But -- the good thing, the great thing actually is all this gray hat stuff. I think Rawa did a wonderful thing. I'm just saying, and of course we'll never know -- I doubt if Rawa or anyone else as Cyan would have done anything if the grey hats had not pushed it.

cedward1 · **Joined:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:41 am **Posts:** 140

I'll be honest here - there is an awful lot of text in this thread, including many terms I don't understand. However, I would like to comment on the "elitist" discussion:

I was never a part of any incarnation of Uru before this one. Therefore to me, anyone who was around when the plot was occuring was very lucky. When I heard that some explorers actually got to take part in the plot, I was excited because it meant that - should the plot ever pick up where it left off - there was a possibility that I could be one of those people.

Those who cry "elitist" remind me of the people who think the rich should not be allowed to be rich because some people are poor. Which is better - for some people to have an amazing experience and others to be able to hope for it, or for nobody to have the experience and nobody be able to hope for it? When one or more of us explorers gets to do something I feel we all benefit. Otherwise we're just an audience. At least let me hope to have the experience of Rils or Reteltee, and let me aspire to be good enough to hack the hoods!

Lontahv · **Joined:** Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:51 pm **Posts:** 265

mszv wrote:

Now for players having events -- I'm more forgiving on times, though I recommend that some events done by the grey hats be done at times that are favorable for the people not living in the Americas.

We're going to work to find a time for events that works for everyone. It doesn't help international scheduling that most, if not all of us are on the American continent.

Anyway, I'm thinking that weekend mornings (Saturday morning and or noon), might be the best internationally. I'll talk about it with the others and see what they think.

Narameh · **Posted:** Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:19 am

Lontahv wrote:

mszv wrote:

Now for players having events -- I'm more forgiving on times, though I recommend that some events done by the grey hats be done at times that are favorable for the people not living in the Americas.

We're going to work to find a time for events that works for everyone. It doesn't help international scheduling that most, if not all of us are on the American continent.

Anyway, I'm thinking that weekend mornings (Saturday morning and or noon), might be the best internationally. I'll talk about it with the others and see what they think.

13:00 KI is quite a good time I think, for those who live in america and elsewhere. For some people this is 9 in the morning, which is doable, and for others like me it's 9 in the evening, which is also doable. Tanshin thought about this for the new players run of ercanna this weekend, and I think it works for almost everybody.

Before I react to the rest of this discussion let me say that I've been a mystseries fan since I was six, but only part of the MOUL community less than a week. I missed the previous incarnations, and I also did not experience any of the unsanctioned hacks.

That being said I'm overwhelmed by the amount of people who want to stop creativity in a digital community based on a culture of creators. Doesn't the writing of ages by the D'ni, which we are all exploring and enjoying, almost force us to experiment to create new things ourselves? I'd expect anybody attracted to such a world/culture/community to be mad with joy at any creative effort, whether it be storywriting, 3d modelling of ages or experimenting with code. Trial and error is the only way to learn of new possibilities, and thus the only way to create new things.

I do understand the fears of out of control hackers/crackers ruining the place, but there seems to be a very slight chance, if there is a chance at all, something like this will happen. Many countries decide to accept certain forms of previously illicit conduct, such as certain forms of prostitution or drug use, so they can control and regulate it. In most cases this helps the people in the bad situations, like prostitutes and drug addicts, because somebody is watching over them where they were alone before. I think this is the same situation; Cyan agrees to let them learn, so that everybody can profit from it and they don't need to break the rules in order to learn. Cyan agreeing to this makes the chance of mayhem smaller, not bigger.

Edit; deleted words others found offensive, see below post.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:57 pm

Well thank you for that imagery and creative analogy.

O.o

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:32 pm

lol, JW. I wanted to comment on that post, but I was wincing from biting my tongue, so I couldn't see to write. :wink:

Narameh · **Posted:** Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:58 pm

I've received a private message that some people were offended by two of the words I used in my post. In my country these are perfectly acceptable and used regularly so I didn't realize I was posting something offensive. I'd like to apologize to anyone who might have felt uncomfortable or otherwise hurt, it was never my intention to be rough or rub people the wrong way.

That being said, yes, it's a bit of a strange analogy perhaps, but it was what it made me think of. I have an aunt who researches the effects of legalization of shady practices on safety of the practisers, so that's probably why it sprung to mind so easily. Might anybody find the example itself offensive, I also apologize for that, too.

I know the standards in America are very different, and things are found offensive much more often. Being Dutch I'm used to being brutally honest and direct, so if I do cross lines, know I don't do it on purpose and please let me know so I can correct it. I will try to be more mindful of it in the future.

Braggi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:59 pm

I'd like to post a thought on terminology for folks to consider. I was in the Hood of Illusions two nights ago and met a few of those running the Hood. Very nice people and always playing within the rules they agreed to. During conversation I happened to mention the term "modder" as a replacement for "hacker". That gave me the idea to share my reasoning for using that term here.

"Hacking" in the computer sense originally meant exploring code and/or computer systems to see what they can do for the sheer joy of learning and exploration. Then, when people started using hacking techniques (copied or otherwise) to cause damage or problems on the net as a whole, the cry went up from the media: "This is hacking!" So we have all learned over and again in the last ten years from news story after news story. As for the original hackers themselves - they view malicious, damaging attacks as "cracking" not hacking and use their skills to oppose it - rigorously. Still, the stigma remains.

"Modding", as a term, is a different form of beast. So far as I know, it does not have the negative connotations of the previous description and never has. "Modders" do exactly what the Grey Hats are doing: they change games/programs and the way they work for fun, interest, education and improvement. Modding as a phenomena is also completely voluntary - you can add a mod to your game or program, but no one is forcing you to. If you like things as they are already and want no changes - great! No compulsion is there to change a single thing and you can keep on enjoying what you already have. By the very manner in which the Hood of Illusions has been established and the rules it operates within these folks fit the definition of "modders" and "modding".

I speak with some experience here - I mod for other programs (largely games) and I have used numerous mods made by others for programs of all types. Heck, in some cases I have to because some of the registered and legally licensed programs I have no longer run on modern hardware/operating systems or the program coders made a mistake and never got around to fixing it. Mods are frequently responsible for fixing these right up. "Fan patches" are a form of modding as are "unofficial patches" - these are but two of the beneficial item types modders create.

My experience with modders has been quite positive - they let me do things I couldn't before, but wanted/should have been able to. Modders are polite, work for and feel ties to a community, and are interested in those who use their work. They welcome constructive criticism and they improve their mods to make them work better. They also work for free, in the monetary sense, considering genuine thanks, the joy of discovery or restored function to something broken to be the best payment received.

Might I ask the community as a whole to consider the term "Modders" in reference to our friendly code-explorers here? Make no mistake, just as we, as a community, explore Uru in our own ethical and rule-abiding way, so too do these folks. They do it in a different manner, yes. They also have strong ethics, police themselves/their actions and possess a deep sense of fair play in what they do. Given time and reasonable freedom they will also pave the way to improvements and new things we will all enjoy and benefit from - not to mention the more immediate fun of discovery that exists for themselves and those who choose to work with them in the mean time.

Food for thought...

A taste of my own medicine.

Who is online