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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:56 pm 
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@Whilyan, as always you misunderstand… or misrepresent on purpose. The reference about tantrum is an illustration of learned behavior. I used it because it is the negative behavior we see least. I wanted to separate the illustration from a specific person and I think tantrums are rare. But, you spun it to make it personal.

I suppose some would think taking the software down was a tantum. I didn’t. It seems you think people would. That you think it a reasonable action to remove open source from a community says a lot about your thinking on behavior and the people here. I suspect that is very much projection and I’m sure you will go on to clarify whether it is or not.

You misrepresent the idea of psychoanalysis by inappropriately relating it to what I’m writing. Analysis is about finding why and correcting an individual’s behavior or helping someone resolve their issues. I am not attempting that. The topic is about some causes of bad behavior and what can be done about those behaviors. If you take it personally, I can understand.

The science in the field is well defined in regard to transference and how behaviors are learned, which is what I’m stating. It is also well defined in what can be done about learned behavior, which I point out. That you take it as an analysis of you and Adam and other GoW members, and that you paint GoW with such a wide brush, is your perception and quite telling.

The topic is a generalization written in such a way that people can take this several ways. English is ambiguous. But the topic name is clear. We have seen how Adam and you are taking it, personally. But, you both missed who and what subject it was directed at.

We both agree that education would be good for all involved. However, I think we see that as producing far different results. I believe you think if people learn how much coding was done and how hard and much work it is everyone will suddenly be grateful to The Coders. I think if they follow the conversations at GoW of the people involved they will see why people have problems with several of the core people participating in GoW. If they follow conversations back to the early days of Uru, I think they will see behaviors remaining in the same trend and escalating, probably not a good thing as you seem to expect.

@AdamJohnso, veiled insults… I guess you missed the part on projection. What I implied and what you inferred are very different.

@Tai’lahr, I suppose I agree or disagree based on your meaning of ‘letting go of the past’. If you mean forgiving and moving on, then I agree. If you mean letting go as forgetting, I disagree. We learn from history and experience. When it comes to people issues like trust, they are based on past behavior. Forgetting past experience means it generally has to be relearned by some future repeat of the behavior.

Your idea that we can improve the reputation of the coders, I think, paints the problem with too wide a brush. It is not the coders or GoW that needs a reputation upgrade. The community contains respected and well appreciated coders (mostly adjectives not verbs). Whilyam and Adam probably do see comments here as targeted at the GoW and all coders in general, which says plenty about their thinking and perception.

Also, we may see the nature of reputation differently. Reputations are earned, not fixed. You have had hurtful things posted about you. To forget who did the posting, what they wrote, in response to what is, and other things shaping the poster’s reputation with you just opens you up to being hurt by them again. Forgiving them and moving on matures you and allows you to drop baggage and avoid carrying it into you next discussion. It doesn’t mean you suddenly trust a person you have learned is duplicitous (that is an example not innuendo).

I see fixing a reputation as what politicians try to do without changing core beliefs and behaviors. They just pump more propaganda.
[/@]

There is no doubt that some people participating at GoW and some participating at MOUL forums will not visit the other forum. Each of those people has their unique reasons. I could spin my ideas of what I think those reasons are, but that would take this discussion into personal areas. While I had no doubt how some people would interpret this thread and that some would take it personally, I did endeavor to write this so that if it had been posted by an ‘approved of’ person at GoW it would be taken as discussion about poor behavior on the MOUL forum. It was not perfect because I decided I needed to relate some current events. So, taking it as focusing on some people involved in coding and age building is not completely insane, but it does miss the point.

What is revealing is that as much as I try to hold the focus on human behavior, is those that take it as being about specific people rather than the subject of perception. Often people jumping in illustrate my points. Everyone posting reveals something about their selves. For instance, lunanne immediately took it as about the hackers. Yet, Theremin got the point. In mszv’s post it is revealed how responsibility is seen. That suggests a number of things about mszv without mszv really telling us all the details. So, any speculation about mszv’s suggested beliefs would be about the speculator not mszv.

Another interesting on point post is Main_Avvie’s. Main sees communication working well here. I suspect that is transference because I don’t see it working so well. That suggests Main is communicating well and for me, not so much and possible insights are revealed about both of us. It gets complicated if one tries to do analysis of the individual rather than the topic because I think Main does communicate well, which suggests I think I do and that puts it into a contradiction the prior one which suggested I think I don't. However, it remains straight forward when one stays on the topic of our perceptions and responses. One can get lost in figuring out what others think and any conclusion is subjective. However, how people perceive and respond is mostly factual as they write it out. It is the why that is nebulousness, personal, and complex.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:11 pm 
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The above post does an excellent job of illustrating my point.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:45 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
@Whilyan, as always you misunderstand… or misrepresent on purpose.


Marriam Webster states the definition of pot as the following

Definition of POT

a usually rounded metal or earthen container used chiefly for domestic purposes (as in cooking or for holding liquids or growing plants); also : any of various technical or industrial vessels or enclosures resembling or likened to a household pot <the pot of a still>

It also has definitions for Kettle;

Definition of KETTLE

a metallic vessel usually used for boiling liquids; especially : teakettle

oh and Black.

Definition of BLACK

of the color black


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Well, I can see I'm just wasting my time here.
You've all made me feel like my words are completely worthless, including you, Nalates.
Enjoy your arguing; clearly none of you are willing to give it up, yet.

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 2:08 pm 
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I made the above post in haste because (ironically, if you will), I was en route to a Healers event when I checked this thread hoping for a nice reply from Whilyam and, aggravated by the other posts but no time to properly address them, I stomped my foot and slammed the door. :P

So, here’s what I should have said:

D’Lanor, your post made me feel as though I’d been shoved out of the way so you could make your point to Whil. It seems like you weren’t even reading the same thread I was and missed the point of the conversation between Whil and me. That hurt.

Nalates, perhaps I shouldn’t be using your thread to try to make inroads with the other side because it appears that’s not in line with your intentions here. Your comments to me make me feel as though you believe I’m naïve, and I fear that your post will undermine everything I’m trying to do here. Also, this:
Nalates wrote:
@Whilyan, as always you misunderstand… or misrepresent on purpose.
is a blanket statement. Since this is a discussion about perception, perhaps you should have said that it was your perception that he always…etc.

Tweek, I've often wanted to say that to Adam & Whil, et al. I guess both sides often think that of each other. :)

Whilyam wrote:
I have never really seen the members of this forum do anything counter to/arguing with Cyan. In general, I've just seen the community blindly support Cyan or, at best, passively suggest changes rather than work on them or passionately argue for them.

Granted, and I tried to explain (not excuse, but explain) why I thought that happened. With the exception of spambots, all the posters here arrived as fans of Cyan. They had no reason to believe Cyan could do anything wrong, so convincing them otherwise is a tough job. People need more information and it needs to be presented in a more civil, non-confrontational way. You need to recognize that it's just easier for people to support the side that's being civil, and naturally because they're a business, Cyan is always civil when they post, so that gives them the upper hand in any argument.

Whilyam wrote:
Tai'lahr wrote:
Cyan has made many mistakes, on that we can agree. From my perspective, it was in sending mixed signals and leaving the community confused about right and wrong. (The following is all speculation on my part, so I expect you to correct me if you think I'm wrong, but please be kind.) Cyan would say, "Don't do this or that; it's against the rules," but when something beneficial was produced by someone who broke the rules, they'd accept it. I guess maybe they felt like they couldn't publicly acknowledge it because that would be bad for their reputation and put them at risk for losing publishers. Still, they could have handled it better through better communication with those involved.

I believe that's one part of it, yes. I'm sure others could add more issues, but that's one of the ones that upsets me the most.

Thank you for the confirmation; that's important for us to know.

Whilyam wrote:
I know you have done some things like repeat "bullies" at the AGM whenever members of the GoW poke fun at others

Well, here’s a good point about perception. You saw it as “poking fun” and I saw it as intimidation. Perhaps you also see many of your posts here as just having fun where others might find that they make them feel intimidated.

Whilyam wrote:
Also saying that Nalates is courageous for posting this thread made me give the Mojang-patented look of disapproval.

:lol: I said that I admired her fearlessness; I suppose I could say the same about you. ;) Neither of you seem to worry too much about what others think of your posts. Sometimes, I wish I could post what I honestly think without worrying about how it will be perceived by others, but too often I find myself walking on eggshells, either out of concern over hurting someone’s feelings or out of fear of receiving a harsh rebuttal.

Whilyam wrote:
Either way, I can't think of anything you did to explain anything hurtful I posted, so I apologize for hurting you. I will do what I can to not do so again. You have, in general, been one of the people actually trying to understand the coders and help.

Thank you for that. I'm really glad that we're speaking to each other again and not just at each other.

Whilyam wrote:
I think with few exceptions most of the time the hurtful things people post are made in moments of frustration that don't simply vanish as people claim. I repeatedly hear the claim that all people need to do is take a walk before they respond to a post. This doesn't work. These are not petty insults that just go away with time, these are fundamental frustrations born of the offender's ignorance of coding, canon, and Uru in general.

This is good insight. As I read it, you could be talking about the way others have hurt you or the way you've hurt others. I presume you mean the former, but hoping you're beginning to see that it's been going both ways for a long time now. No one involved can claim they're without fault and everyone needs to try harder to see things from the other side before posting, and take others' feelings into consideration.

As the thread title suggests, "Perception is everything" and I'm afraid all involved arrived at a point where they saw the other side as pure evil and that left no room for rational discussion of the real issues. We've used over half a dozen threads to get to this point which I feel is a good start, but there's still a long road ahead.

I'm done for now. I have an idea for a project which I believe will contribute to our continued enlightenment about each other and I want to focus my efforts on that. In the meantime, I hope everyone will just keep trying to put into practice the things we've already discussed.

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 7:26 pm 
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One problem I notice is that both sides will say they "know" which side started it and therefore they are justified in either responding in kind or demanding that the other side perform some form of reparations. There have been several people (Marcus Wheeler and Branan come to mind) who have advocated a "starting anew" and I feel that individuals in the GoW and the GoMa are slightly closer, even if they still dislike others in the other guild. The problem is that those initiatives often seem to hit a brick wall. Branan's lost steam when he talked to OpenUru and they were, essentially, doing it wrong (I don't know enough to understand the technicalities, but not having an easily-accessible repo I understood as pretty bad). It really died off after this recent incident.

As for civility, I think if you talked to some of the people who have been here for longer, they would say that they were civil and put up with a lot of abuse before being "uncivil" and, essentially, leaving the community because the community ignored their arguments out of hand. Furthermore, I would argue that it's not as clear cut as "civil vs. uncivil" since several passionate Cyan supporters got pretty uncivil with me back when I was spending time writing out civil arguments for why a course of action should be taken. The difference was their uncivil behavior was in private, but none the less disturbing (or humorous, depending on how you look at it). I think that's a pattern both from my own experience and the stories told to me by others. The people on the "other side of the fence" do their ugly confrontations in private (where I would argue it is more intimidating since it's analogous to confronting someone in a dark alley rather than the public park of the whole forum). Rarely, an individual will confront another "in the open" so to speak and only then does this community do a little soul-searching and only then does a small change happen. Often times the outburst will reveal the flawed logic, revised history, or plain old lies the individual uses to base his argument and I think that's what triggers the small change. It's a collective revulsion over what had been the un-spoken sentiment which now seems ridiculous when said in public. I saw it happen with the cries over poor-quality fan Ages. People were hemming and hawing until people pointed out that the "defects" in fan Ages were similarly present in Cyan's Ages. The masses suddenly noticed the truth and fan Ages were gradually more acceptable (though there are plenty who rightly point out fan Ages may never be as acceptable as they could have been had Cyan delivered clear messages).

Paradox echoed a lot of my points before. Link

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:25 pm 
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More good insights, Whil. I can identify with your analogy of a private confrontation in PM feeling like being confronted in a dark alley. I’ve experienced it and it made me feel helpless. But the forum guidelines tell us to take these kinds of arguments to PM, so I suppose our only recourse is to report them. :?

If the GoW & GoMa can reconcile their differences, then there’s hope for us all. Perhaps OU will be next in line. ;) I realize that effective communication between these groups is a lot of work and when placed on top of the real work they’re doing, not to mention real life responsibilities, it can quickly become overwhelming and frustrating. So, I applaud those that persevere.

This may be a tad off-topic, but with regards to Fan Ages, I never thought it was appropriate to discuss their quality (with the exception of contructive criticism when it was sought by the writer) and certainly not to compare them to Cyan’s work. Perhaps I’m being too IC about them, but I always took the attitude that all player-created ages are acceptable because they all fall within the storyline of Explorers learning the craft. And, yes, it would have been helpful if Cyan had reaffirmed this point from time to time.

Whilyam wrote:
Paradox echoed a lot of my points before. Link

Tell Paradox thanks for the insightful article. Although this isn’t exactly the thread where I hoped the link would be, at least it’s now on this forum.

In an earlier post (reply to D'Lanor), you seemed to indicate that you believe Cyan chose to work with OpenUru because of their business relationship with JWPlatt. Let's just clarify that that's your perception. IMO, Cyan would have chosen to work with JW on this even if they hadn't worked together on MQO because of how he conducts himself. He has always played by their rules. (Example: when he pushed them for more data on the lake lighting, he was told to take it IC which he did and he got results by doing so.) That's just my perception.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
If the GoW & GoMa can reconcile their differences, then there’s hope for us all. Perhaps OU will be next in line. ;) I realize that effective communication between these groups is a lot of work and when placed on top of the real work they’re doing, not to mention real life responsibilities, it can quickly become overwhelming and frustrating. So, I applaud those that persevere.

Also applaud those who don't persevere. They're usually the ones who have endured the most, been here the longest, or contributed the most.

Quote:
In an earlier post (reply to D'Lanor), you seemed to indicate that you believe Cyan chose to work with OpenUru because of their business relationship with JWPlatt. Let's just clarify that that's your perception. IMO, Cyan would have chosen to work with JW on this even if they hadn't worked together on MQO because of how he conducts himself. He has always played by their rules. (Example: when he pushed them for more data on the lake lighting, he was told to take it IC which he did and he got results by doing so.) That's just my perception.

I think most of the grey hats would say that they played by the rules too up until very recently when it was obvious Cyan wanted nothing to do with them. I would further argue that "playing by the rules" is just as bad a criteria. The grey hats were the people who have been helping Cyan in some form since the days of UU, dreaming up innovative ideas, and working in their spare time to try and bring new functionality to Uru. Platt did none of those things. Who is the better group to work with? The one who has done work for you in the past and has the technical knowledge of the code spanning almost a decade, or the one that just brought you in some short-term cash?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:54 am 
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Any chance of OpenURU and GoW working together on one Fork?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:05 am 
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Stucuk wrote:
Any chance of OpenURU and GoW working together on one Fork?


We've discussed merging our changes with them, but their admin has been *extremely* slow at answering our questions and giving us his concerns and questions with the our suggestions. The ball is in their court.

That being said, we do have slightly different goals - the OU team seems to want smaller changes that remain compatible with Cyan's MOUL codebase as much as possible. The GoW team's goal is to create the best environment for the GoW artists to work in - and there will definitely be places where those goals diverge.

EDIT: I should add that credit goes to CWalther for being the driving force behind trying to get this stuff somehow compatible

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Stucuk and PoK/Branan, I replied to this in a new thread: http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24814

And yes, Christian is a great example and has always been very helpful.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
The grey hats were the people who have been helping Cyan in some form since the days of UU, dreaming up innovative ideas, and working in their spare time to try and bring new functionality to Uru. Platt did none of those things. Who is the better group to work with? The one who has done work for you in the past and has the technical knowledge of the code spanning almost a decade, or the one that just brought you in some short-term cash?

More pointedly, the statement that "Platt did none of those things" stands in contrast to this thread, which lacks the snarkiness that seems to infect so many other posts on this subject. So let me be snarky for JWP and note the rich irony in the denigration of a member of the community by someone who has made such an effort to fight the denigration of other members of the community. And I wonder if the men and women of Cyan would view the paychecks that the MQO work supported as mere "short-term cash."

Sigh. This community's kumbaya moments are so fleeting. I think I'll take my Pony and go home . . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Glad you posted Zardoz. JWPlatt did a lot, a real professional.

I'm glad groups are coming together. So, maybe, what it took is the new state of the game, the open source thing. It's been my observation that when nothing happens with regards to Uru -- tempers flare. Another thought -- perhaps there wasn't a reason to come together. Now that there is -- it's good to see groups working together, nicely pragmatic. I like that. I think that when we see new ages, and modifications to the client that we can see, in game, players are going to be super happy about that -- so that might count as appreciation. On working on tools and infrastructure -- it's hard to see what's going on, if you are on the outside, so it's hard to be appreciative.

I admit I have a bias towards forum members who don't yell and who treat others in a kindly fashion. People here may have done spectacular work, but if they come on the forums and get all grumpy, I end up thinking -- gee, touchy. I don't end up thinking "they did great work and no one appreciates them". Other forums members who aren't doing development might wonder what all the yelling is about, and why they have to pick sides. On trying to understand, Tai'lahr's a lot kinder than I am! I figure that, if there's yelling, someone is yelling to make themselves feel better. If they wanted me to understand, they wouldn't yell. That's how I look at it.

Unlike Natales (whose posts I always like, interesting and respectful) I think people on the forum communicate reasonably well, in spite of the yelling. It's never been one community, it's a set of intersecting communities. Some people just don't like each other. For all that, I think the communities, the people who are left, they muddle through. And every so often, someone new comes around here. I think we are still losing more people than gaining people, but...what can you do.

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