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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:38 am 
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Recent events in the Cavern (which I’d really like only to be discussed in the most general and schematic terms here if necessary, ok? so that the thread doesn’t get locked down before the conversation has a chance to get started) have gotten me thinking about good responses to inappropriate behaviour again. We’ve had a number of discussions on the forums about this in the past (which are easy enough to find if one goes hunting), and some of them made suggestions for an alteration to the game client to allow for, shall we say, a more robust answer to harrassment or other forms of griefing (the /kick function). These discussions were always a bit hypothetical, since there was really no indication at the time that fan modifications to the code would ever make it onto Cyan’s version of the game; recent moves forward in open source, however, along with our currently somewhat improved funding situation, have made it seem to me, at least, that this conversation could now profitably be re-opened. And: I have a specific proposal.

I agree with the objections that people made to the /kick-function idea. In a nutshell, it had too much potential for abuse. But there is more than one way of removing someone from your gaming experience. I would like to suggest that we reconsider a less intrusive suggestion also made in earlier discussions: the possibility of modifying the /ignore-function of the KI (or of adding an additional function we might call /shun) to make the ignored avatar not merely inaudible, as is currently the case, but invisible as well.

Most griefing operates on the assumption that a certain kind of behaviour on the part of the griefer will elicit a certain desirable response from the victim (fear, anger, confusion, whatever), and it is this response that provides the griefer with his or her motivation to continue. In the Cavern, options for influencing another person’s playing experience are largely limited to KI-messages, chat, and what goes on on the screen. This last is what concerns me at the moment: it’s an immensely disturbing experience to have to watch in third person as your personal space is repeatedly violated by another avatar, or to turn around in first person to find him leering over your shoulder. The ability to ‘disappear’ someone else would render this kind of griefing immediately ineffective without compromising the griefer’s rights to be in a certain place at a certain time or to continue to interact with those players who are still willing to tolerate his or her behaviour.

So I wonder if we could talk about this. What might speak for this idea, what reservations do we have about it, what haven’t I thought of that might make me abandon it altogether in favour of something even cleverer? :)

One final point: Lontahv at the Guild of Writers tells me that this is an entirely possible, even minor modification to the xKI Python code. So it could be done. The question is therefore: do we want it?

(Edited for accuracy.)

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Last edited by Gahlen on Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:29 am 
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Gahlen wrote:
I would like to suggest that we consider the possibility of modifying the /ignore-function of the KI (or of adding an additional function we might call /shun) to make the ignored avatar not merely inaudible, as is currently the case, but invisible as well.


Sounds great as long as it doesn't make them invisible to everyone. Some people don't mind these distractions and even laugh at them.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:32 am 
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I often wondered why the Ignore thingy on the KI only makes the text invisible I think it makes perfect sense, Ignore is ignore Make the offending :AV invisible inaudible and unreadable. Uru is a place to be your self, enjoy yourself and the company of others or just wonder around on your own, Although I have to agree with Charura they can be entertaining but their not entertaining to everyone

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:59 am 
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The ResEngs had the ability to make themselves invisible (as did the bahro avatars) so it should be a very simple matter to make this a reality. I personally think it's a great idea. Ive never had any griefing issues in my time playing but this seems like a wonderful way to eliminate that without compromising anyone's play experience and most likely it would even help to discourage that kind of behavior. You got my vote, definitely.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:50 am 
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Your own avatar goes invisible to yourself when you are in first person, but you are still always seen by other people or it would look pretty weird. So I would think it would be possible to make another person's avatar invisible to just yourself and not to others.

Have to make sure this function doesn't accidentally make the avatar invisible to all people in the age.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 am 
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Ehren wrote:
Have to make sure this function doesn't accidentally make the avatar invisible to all people in the age.

My current understanding is that the location of the function in the xKI Python code would take care of this. It seems to be a surprisingly simple matter.

More generally, I have just now discovered a discussion of this over at OpenUru.org I hadn't noticed before. Dates back to April, and the idea is rocketdog's. Here: http://forums.openuru.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=525&p=4471. Go read. What objections make sense to you?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:46 am 
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I think that's an excellent idea. I'm assuming, though, that such a function would need to be global for the unclickable avater, that is, you couldn't set it to make you unclickable by only one person, you'd have to be unclickable for everyone. So it would need to be a separate command, one couldn't bundle it with an updated /ignore or a /shun function. But this would be a very good option to have, I agree.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:19 pm 
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I'm no expert in how the client works, but during the CAVCON party there was someone who kept spamming and PM people so I /ignored him. Later I noticed that the ignore command not only made his chat invisible for me but I couldn't click on him too. So I think somehow it is possible to reverse the effect and make yourself unclickable for him only.

Another point to take into consideration, I think that /ignore command doesn't prevent people from sending you KiMails and KiQuests, in fact that certain someone was spamming people with those even if they had him on /ignore.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Might want to also disable all clickables for the /shunned person in your private ages so that the offender could not affect your ages or use your unlocked relto books.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Any changes that are easily implemented [or already there but not in use] into the KI prohibiting
a disturbing persons "presence" getting too uncomfortable is more then welcome! Either it is the
"disturber" goes 'silent', can't PM You [You can always use Ignore!] or goes 'Invisable' [can't be
even seen] and thus can't *Invade Your Personal Space*, walking / running in-and-out through
Your avvie. That happens now way too much. Intensionally!

But the KI has actually a neat function: Allow only KI-mails & PM's from persons on Your
Buddie-List. [Under "cogwheels"] But I don't know if it's effective as I've never had the need
to use it. Yet ..

/ Max /

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:22 pm 
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I have dealt with a few victims of griefing, and indeed i was a victim myself a few months ago. It almost drove me out of the game - it was only at the twelfth hour, after i had deleted my avvies, that i was persuaded to stay. I have dealt with at least 3 cases of this in the most recent occurrences.

I am all for an enhanced "ignore" function, it would make it much easier to help friends or new explorers who are quite upset by some of the stuff flying their way, with no way to stop it except logging out.

I am sure that people can think of drawbacks to this proposal, but given the difficuty of permanently keeping a persistent offender out, a simple way of people blocking out what they don't want or feel is appropriate seems like a fair compromise. Bear in mind these people are entering your home (in effect) - would you let them through your front door? Why should we have to let them in the electronic front door?

If the people that some people view as griefers can be easily ignored completely by those who wish to - then everyone has reached a fair compromise. The griefers are still free to come in and do whatever they get up to (which is not really my concern), but they are not being excluded - whilst the folk who don't want that sort of behaviour can just blot it out.

Who knows, if enough people ignore the most persistent offenders - those individuals may find that there is little enjoyment for them in even coming into the cavern. This would achieve what happens in most of the less persistent cases - the person who is behaving in an unacceptable manner to most either gets the message, gets totally ignored, or gets lost.

One thing i am sure of, and have been quite worried about recently - especially considering the CAVCON party and people's renewed awareness of the situation - is that donations will eventually dry up if people don't enjoy coming into the cavern, and have no way to reasonably protect themselves. No donations = no cavern.

I would like to be able to say to a new explorer or a close friend in the cavern who may be a bit emotionally fragile - just "shun" that user who annoys you - instead of spending hours with several people in tears, who love and do not want to leave the cavern (and/or the friends they have here), but just cannot face the blatent indimidation they get every time they log on - some of the behaviour i have been made aware of recently would get a prison sentence in real life - so a function like this is wholly justified in my opinion.

Sorry this turned into a bit of an essay, but those who know me will know i am fairly verbose - and i hope you forgive me.

Isobel
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:48 pm 
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I think the only danger in using a /shun function is that there are too many people in RL I'd want to use it on ;)

Seriously though, it would probably solve a lot of issues in cavern. However... would there also be an /unshun function? Because who knows, maybe one day a good friend might be pressing your buttons just because they're having a bad day and you're having a bad day too and then BAM the /shun happens. And if it is irreversible... well... sometimes people that care about each other still do silly things when they're mad. And it would be a bit sad if that could not be resolved.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:52 pm 
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I'd want the ignore function to make me invisible to them.

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