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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:05 pm 
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You can probably say that the maintainer's suit per se is not a particular problem, but other items, such as the Res Eng's hard hat is reserved because that item has special significance as it intended to designate an "official", so it's use by others could be misleading, misrepresentative or subject to abuse. The same could apply to the "special" avatars. So the problem then becomes one of classifying which of the normally unavailable items are "safe" and which aren't and communicating that to the users. To me that just seems to be an unnecessary complication and it's easier just to say that none of those items should appear in public areas.

On the topic of the maintainer's suit though I think that, were the wall available, you would only get the suit on entering the wall area and would be automatically relieved of it on exiting the area. Therefore in normal usage the engine has no need to check whether you're wearing outside the wall area because the wall games ensures it doesn't happen. Acquiring the suit outside of the wall area is not "normal" so you can't really claim that's a shortfall in the engine. Perhaps, with no availabale wall game, the "mistake" is having the suit present at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:18 pm 
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kharmapup wrote:
I have also had other effects follow me out of the magic ages such as the fireflies a few days ago. I wore them all over the city as well as to both of the Eders. Is this also against the rules or is the only real issue with the Maintainers Suit?

No, that's fine, as these bugs need to be "paged in" so that other avatars can see them - in simpler terms, it means that other avatars in the city can't see you with these bugs on, unless they were in the same Age as you when they appeared.

However, if you activate your KI light using one of the bots, then THAT is against the rules.

@Norfren: You express many of the concerns other explorers have felt recently (some of which I partly share, but not all), but you must remember that MO:ULa is Cyan's Shard - as such, they dictate what rules users must follow. If you do not agree with them, there are other Shards with no such limits (and with various improvements, too). You can even set up your own Shard if you so desire. But the fact of the matter is that Cyan dictates the rules, and that lamenting them will at best notify Cyan of explorers' concern, and at worst offend other explorers who don't agree that the rules should be changed. :?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:19 pm 
I say that anything I can't get from my Relto wardrobe should never be accessible.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:07 pm 
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I feel like in kindergarten with this issue which isn't or shouldn't be any somehow lol ... :P

Sorry, but I just think of new explorers coming to MOULa, having a hard day or long life
of work behind and/or having raised a whole family with children and whatnot and now just
wanting to have some fun in their more or less small leisure time ... Then others are running
around to apply any rules, just for the sake of saying something and applying rules lol, and
one of them is approaching those innocent new ones to tell them 'You may not do this or that,
otherwise I tell Cyan' ... OMG haha ... 'Mummy, mummy this guy is doing sth he shouldn't do !!! ...

Ok, sorry, this had to be said one time ... See, not all newbies are as open and humble as kharmapup is ...
His reaction is really sweet, isn't it?... No, kharmapup, you don't need to apologize at all ... How should you
have known this ... no normal person would ever think of such things to happen to them in a very normal public
MMO, I believe ... Many others might just feel like being taken for a ride and just leave without any further comment ...
This is not meant as an offense, just to make you aware of what you're doing and saying here ... :D

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Lyrositor wrote:

However, if you activate your KI light using one of the bots, then THAT is against the rules.



Far as I know, if you activate the KI light using a bot, it will flicker off 'normally' once you leave the Age where the Bot is. That's how it always happens for me, anyway. And,. yeah.. I've had a green glow or fireflies follow me out of the funouse, or after a Bot session;... . but when I asked other players about it, they couldn't see it on me.


BUT..I must speak in defense of the 'KI glitch' ...

If you actually activate your KI light normally in game... [spoiler]by going to 'Descent' & using the device... [/spoiler]...there's a glitch sometimes. Even tho you see your own KI light flicker off, sometimes other people will still see it ON; your KI might be glowing for everyone else, and you wouldn't even know about it unless someone told you.

I make a habit of it, tho...every time I log on I activate the thing KNOWING it might glitch and stay on.. in fact, I'm hoping it does. Surely those times my KI stays on, it wouldn't be considered an off-limits funhouse effect??


Edit to add.. and since the subject is bending this way.... this is the ONE thing I am kinda heartbroken about with regard to the wardrobe: I wanna come to Uru and pretend I am D'ni, rather than just some earthling... the restrictions of the wardrobe make it a little difficult. Sure we have the[spoiler] Catherine Tunic and the Watcher's Pub shirt, neither of which are customizable colors... [/spoiler] ...and there's the Maintainer suit & Atrus shirt which aren't currently available. Is there any chance Cyan would be willing to make some minor changes to the wardrobe--- like adding a few of those 'off liimits' items, or more D'ni items & letting the current ones be customizable?

So many of us are trying to maintain a social 'culture' in Uru...a little thing like more avatar customization, would go a long way..

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:58 am 
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(tl;dr etc, sorry about that)

I think Norfen took it too far here, nobody is discussing whether the Fun House effect should exist at all, this issue ended long ago and the relevant posts are pinned and in blue for all to see. As for the glitching, it may not be official gameplay but nobody here said we aren't allowed to do it, also afaik it doesn't cause the problems it used to cause during previous restorations, so older explorers shouldn't panic when they see us sleeping in mid-air because we're not cheating (forgive me if I'm wrong here, I need to change my information sources in this case :P )

Karmapup doesn't need to apologized either, nobody is bashing him. Though, he clearly showed he didn't like it when I played Uru Mommy and told him he should take the suit off otherwise I would have to report him. Heck I didn't do it, I came and opened a discussion thread here, instead of doing what others prefer to do and turn the Cavern upside down with their obsession to fill a ticket.

And how would one know that he was just an innocent explorer having fun and not someone that deliberately wore the suit to cause trouble anyway? Because we've seen many do this exact thing.
So we say what we're supposed to say, some more kindly than others, let the person in question know what's the issue and allow them to decide whether they'll keep doing that or not. And we go back to what we were doing.

But none of these is the issue here, at least this is not what I asked when I opened this topic. I get the feeling that such words are put in my mouth and it upsets me if we get sidetracked. I wouldn't want to regret asking in the first place if it ends up causing a fuss.

I don't know, if it's all so simple let's have a party in the City dressed with this suit, I'm all for it! If it doesn't cause any technical issue or canon issue or anything that could annoy anyone. Spend a night or two wearing it until we get bored of it and forget the whole thing.


I think the issue is what are the bots allowed to do and what they're not, what is allowed in each (well, in this case this) Shard and what is not, so, like Lyrositor said, that we know what us explorers ask for and move accordingly. Or modify the options that the bots currently give us so that we all stay within the "rules" or within canon like Harvey said.

Btw could it be that the bot owner made a modification for the suit to be removed between the times we both wore it? Because I never tried to use a bot to dress my avvie up at all until yesterday morning when I went to get the suit, and it was removed when I logged out and the parts weren't in my closet after I took them off. If he wasn't, then one of the two cases was some sort of glitch that the bot owner should probably look into.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:16 am 
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Interesting discussion.

I was tactfully notified yesterday that I was wearing the "Sharper Hat" in a public age and that it was taboo.

Well, I like slouch hats, have one IRL, and I'd been wearing it in a "magic" age and the unwear command would not work. I was surprised that the hat actually stayed on my head once I'd linked to a public area, but was distracted by my first attempts to sit on the map :)

My avatar is a reasonable approximation to my IRL appearance, hence my looking for the slouch hat. Sorry if I offended, and I won't do it again. Linking to Relto and using the wardrobe corrected my faux pas.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:21 am 
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I hope I am not derailing here :oops: We are growing....I don't know wither growing up or growing down.
Our first growing pains started in GT times,this is the point in time I recall. I remember the "Episodes" that some did not like,not sure if they were canon or not, but they seem to have become canon, (thinking mainly of 'Scars" at moment"), for us today. I liked them because they were new.
The Fun House,Hood of Illusions, all the Bots, GlitchJump marker games, ect. these are all things that are new and exciting and fun to our cavern and possibly starting to become the ....umm growing canon. My opinion is we are evolving and may have to update some of our Rules& Regulations and even enhance our canon a bit.
There are certain things that will have to stay Cyan privilage, for the correct reasons. ResEng. hat,DRC characters ,ect.
We may be bringing Fan ages in soon (I hope) to MOULa. If I were to venture into one of these I sure would like a maintainer's suit to wear,just in case :).
I have no problem with many of these things like the Maintainers suit, the Sharper slouch hat, Glow KI. they are or can be fun for the explorers new or old.
This all is just my opinion, if we don't grow (allow new things) we die. I really don't want see the 3rd death come about, if we stop growing I think this could happen. So what do we do, stop these things or..............................................






shorah gah khretahgth

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:27 am 
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kharmapup wrote:
I would like to make one more point before I close. It is my personal opinion that if someone is going to address this in the cavern, that they may want to try a different tactic than, "You are breaking the rules, you need to take that off or I will report you." I am paraphrasing here as I do not have the actual log, but that is essentially what was said to me. To me, it felt like a threat, as such, I did not respond right away and I don't think others would either. I did eventually relog to remove the suit as well as the many other effects that were following me around the cavern/


First thing, kharmapup, welcome back to the game and to the MOULa Forums. Glad you found one of our many helpful members in the cavern to help you get started here. :D
As far as the in-cavern comment from adi to you, well, I can say from personal experience over time, she has a "style" :shock: all her own and and while I wouldn't presume to speak for her, I would surely assume her interaction with you was not meant to come across as threatening. adi is a well known and respected member of the MOULa community as I am sure you will be too. :P

@Norfren :)
Norfen wrote:
And what about other "useful" effects resulting from different flaws of the game or graphic engine? Should we report if someone uses combo jumps in public areas? If sitting in the air over the courtyard? If walking over the makeshift bridge in Ae'gura?

"Glitching" actions are nothing new, have been around for a loooooooong time, and are usable and do-able by any explorer who takes the time to learn the skills required to achieve such actions. I happen to enjoy it tremendously as do many others. Over the years, I have seen "glitching" skills in the city and elsewhere to be a real attraction for the returning players as well as the newer players to aspire to. It's like taking a newbie to a "completed Relto" to let them see what's in store for them down the road. It helps tremendously to peak interest, to build and maintain the community involvement that we need for MOULa to survive, longterm.

"Glitching" as we all know it to be, has got nothing to do with "magic", Bots, etc. They are not the same as "useful effects" derived from the newly created "grey area" of what some of the bots seem to be providing on an ever increasing frequency. Sometimes, things get just a little bit out in front of the intended purpose and as usual, it'll take a slight "adjustment period" to iron the kinks out.
The bot's effects, magic, etc., while they are fun and something new to play with, they have their place and for now, according to CYAN, it's not in the public areas. It's that simple. A gentle and friendly worded PM, regarding an observation to someone, is never out of line. :lol:

As DaVinci just put it so well, we are having some growing pains and it will just take a little time.

Shorah gah Khretaght

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:44 am 
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The subject at hand here has nothing to do with you, adi, please, don't take
anything personally here ... Nobody is talking about you here, this is about
an issue that seems to be permanently and subliminally present, energy-wise,
and as such it was a good thing that you brought that up, adi, intuitively, and
as you see, everyone is jumping on it in his/her own way, means that there has
something to be cleared up for as much involved as possible ... This can and will
in the worst case scenario, as DaVinci hinted to so aptly, even lead us to Uru's
next demise ... Let's just be open and grow and thrive and enjoy ... :)

So, sweet adi, this my comment was just for you, you're a sweetheart, and most
of us know this (newbies don't :wink: )... there is no need to regret anything, it is good
that this is in the open and maybe there will be a reasonable and sustainable solution
soon ... :D

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:49 am 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
when I get magicbot to change any article of my clothing, it remains on me... even if I log out or even quit for the day; or even if I don't use that avatar for several days, when I log back in it will still be wearing the 'forbidden' item until I go to my wardrobe and make the choice to replace or remove it.


This is not good. If this is true, MagicBot is changing your player vault without your knowledge. While it's probably safe on a "it won't crash anything" level, it makes it incredibly easy to wander around with clothing items that are inappropriate for public areas a result (you quit the game and forget about the inappropriate item[s]). Really, all bots should register for behavior notifications on any avatar they change the clothing of and reset the clothing when they receive the link-out behavior. That way, people who link away without explicitly changing their clothes back will no longer have the "naughty" item. Not saving the item to the vault will prevent the item from persisting across sessions.

Now a more general word. I know that by wearing nonstandard items in public areas you guys are just having fun or don't know. However, you must keep in mind the condition on which Cyan allowed these things to happen--that they stay in the appropriate areas or they go away. Cyan has been very tolerant of slip ups and purposeful disregard of this condition so far. However, they would be entirely in their right to act upon their original condition. In fact, I would say they have even more right to do so now because there can be shards dedicated to hacks and fun house like effects (there were no shards and was no open source when The Fun House opened). If you enjoy having The Fun House and bots in general, you need to do your best to play by the rules. If you can't, you're free to start your own playground now. We can't hold this rule or its potential enforcement against Cyan as a result.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:01 am 
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I agree with Adam on this one... well said.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:29 am 
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Having bots try to "detect" when someone left and remove/change their clothing would be a bad idea. It just seems going too far.

Do we really trust people so little? I think most people would still obey the rules about the clothing and those who didn't understand would be quickly informed of their mistake...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:38 am 
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I don't see a problem with it, fun is only supposed to stay in TFH, the bots are enforcing this. Though in the end I guess it's up to Cyan to decide what the bots can and can not do.Cyan can change the rules if they disagree with what the bots are doing. Besides better the bots revert peoples cloths hem then people complain(which people have done hense this thread) and Cyan stops all Fun House stuff as a result.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:54 am 
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A couple of points occur to me out of this discussion.

1) The prohibition isn't reinforced when you link to a bot. I'd been in Magic Tolesa with MagicBot. The linkin message and the help texts for the age, for Magic Clothing and MagicBot himself don't make any mention of being sure to keep the magic out of public ages. I think I read something on a forum about it, but there's no reminder. I can see how someone might end up wearing something taboo with no knowledge that it was so serious.

So.

2) could the bots be programmed to send you a message on link-out to remind you to be sure not to take anything "magic" away with you, clothing, KI glow etc. Though my experiments with Lyrobot this morning show that he extinguishes the KI light on link-out. Of course he doesn't support the Wear command. Really, the bots should perform gatekeeping checks and remove everything "magic" when you link out.

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