Minkata navigation by day and night.

tommyap · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:29 pm

Muttly. you can find an astronomical explanation of Teledahn here:
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 74&start=0

DLordofTime · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:00 pm

Not this again... That is a load of nonsense and you know it.

Ainia · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:08 pm

Shorah again Muttley,

Yes, I realize that your perspective is purely IC, that everything you have discussed here is observable by anyone who wants to go look for themselves. I didn't mean to imply that anyone is "wrong" or "right" here. There really is no absolute measurement about this, in the end there is only what is right or wrong for each of us individually.

I am gathering that your own interest is in understanding the astrophysics of Minkata. There are numerous explorers who have studied various aspects of the Ages--geology, botany, archeology, astronomy, physics, etc. etc. And so a wonderful collection of observations, theories and questions has resulted, a great deal of which can be found here on the forum.

In terms of what one can see with one's IC eyes, there is a great deal of latitude and variety of opinion amongst explorers about that as well. There are some whose hobby is to find the interesting holes throughout the Ages; others are Skydivers at heart and have found all the tricky ways to explore off the well-worn paths. Some explorers find such things fun, some find such things break their immersion (and so consider them objectionable). Some folks (including yourself I gather), object to views from flymode; others find them fascinating and a welcome augmentation to their own explorations. Those of us who use flymode to further our own explorations have very individual perspectives on how it can be used or abused. It's simply all according to one's taste and reasons for being in Cavern.

The point I'm trying to bring to the fore here is simply that there is a huge spectrum of interests, tastes and opinions about exploring the Ages; and that (I believe), there is no right or wrong way to do this. The only clear guidelines we have been given are OOC (Cyan does not allow hacking of any sort, though there has been some leeway granted for the Fun House). Anything within the greyer zones many of us love to explore seems to be left up to us. And a secondary point is that these differences are sure to arise whenever we have a discussion with fellow explorers! :wink:

In my own explorations, I've encountered phenomena that I've had to pigeonhole in some way. You have observed that if one keeps walking through the Minkata dust storms, one can find the 'end of the world' there. The same is true of the Cleft when one solves the Easter egg and heads out beyond the fence to find Zandi and the edge of the world. I have to decide for myself what it means that I can walk past the Cleft mountains and then fall into oblivion

(I have certainly never been able to find such a phenomenon here on the surface in New Mexico! :shock:

)

There are widely varying opinions about whether information from the books, from the other "games" and from UruCC are "true" or not. Some folks would prefer that none of that be discussed here, others find that it augments and deepens their experience of the Cavern. Again, it's all a matter of taste and perspective.

My own observations about Minkata and the suns: they do not move discernibly, but when navigating in the daytime, I have to choose between using the suns and using the shadows as they do not align (if I follow my shadow, I will be slightly misaligned with the sun casting that shadow). Another very interesting phenomenon of that Age.

Apologies all around if I've derailed this thread! Back on topic, please! :wink:

AlanD · **Posted:** Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:30 pm

OOC
[spoiler]I absolutely adored flymode and the ability to view and record the appearance of the ages from places and angles that were not originally intended. But I agree with those who say that anything viewed from flymode cannot be considered canonical, as the appearance is not what was intended by the game designers. So the observation of the Teledahn sun as a disk is not canon, it could never be seen like that by a player of the unmodified game.

Cyan has every right to object to unauthorised modifications of their intellectual property. It is their product and they want to be sure that it works the same way for everyone. We sign up for that every time we log on - it's in the EULA (Use of the Client Application and Game Content section) and the Code of Conduct (section 4: Hacking). Flymode is a hack of the offline game, and the magic commands and actions made available by the bots are hacks of the online game. We are lucky that Cyan have agreed to let the bots remain for now, and I understand the reasons for the prohibition against using "magic" tricks in public areas: that's Cyan's privilege.

Hence my agreement with those who say that off-track exploration has to be clearly differentiated from authorised exploration. Once you go off-track you are by default OOC and looking at the strings that hold up the scenery. I don't object to it, indeed it's fascinating to get into the machinery that supports the illusion, but you have to keep it compartmentalised.

Skydiving and etc.
The clipping errors (holes in the walls) and climbing on the scaffolding (skydiving) are QA problems, non-intended performance options and effects that have not been corrected by the release management process. Such issues are inevitable in any complex software product, and I can understand why Cyan reserve the right to correct them in later releases.

Exploring those unintended areas with a standard client is perfectly legitimate, but the results should not be seen as canon, in my opinion. To the software team they are errors, faults in the released software. As such they can't be used to provide the IC character with any information, not least because the software team will want to fix those errors in later releases.

The Uru easter egg, Zandi's Zamboni, is OOC as well, although it's not made clear by the way you find it. The appearance of the Zamboni and the fact that you hit the edge of the world both indicate to me that this escapade is not canon.[/spoiler]

Back to the OP's point

Mapping
I love Minkata because it's a mapping problem, one that harks back to the very roots of Adventure gaming, combined with a navigation problem that is a nice twist on the venerable technique of astronavigation. [spoiler]Recognising the instruction book as a set of orienteering directions, realising as you draw it out that the vector sum is going to be the best way to minimise errors of time and direction, then seeing the pattern that you drew shining out of the night sky is very rewarding.

My interest was piqued by the navigation problem I was left with once I'd finished the Minkata age: How do you get back to the bonehenge without a convenient moving constellation to guide you? There are no shadows to act as compass pointers in the night side. So I needed to know if the constellations were reliable skymarkers after completing the age, and if so what positions they held relative to the landmarks on the ground.

The answer turned out to be "yes, with limitations". Provided you stay where you can still see things around you, the constellations are reliable, as are the only recognisable deep sky objects, the big spiral galaxies. When pushing exploration into the denser dust zones, I discovered the limitations, the fact that the constellations are not astronomically distant or even trying to maintain the illusion that they are: You can run past them.
[/spoiler]
So my interest in Minkata is in navigating around the place using the landmarks and celestial markers that are available. This relies on understanding IC how that works, which means understanding the relationship between the stellar objects and us on the ground, as we're talking about IC navigation. If the lights in the sky are not "at infinity" for practical purposes, it affects how we use them to navigate on the ground. For this to work, a consistent, reliable model has to be constructed and tested, just as the scientific method tells us.

That's what decided me to start this thread, to share what I'd discovered, as I found that no-one had posted to that effect before me.

I agree about the shadows and the suns in Minkata: I think it's because the third party view camera is not directly behind the avatar.

You've mentioned your proximity to the New Mexico inspiration for the place we find Zandi in, and I'm jealous once more. Keep this up and I'll be forced to post a pic from my Scottish ramblings, just to prove we've got some nice scenic bits as well

. I think we'd better find another thread to do it in, though.

Ainia · **Posted:** Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:19 pm

Shorah Muttley/AlanD, Cal and Kath!

Decided to post this here since it's a PITA(TM) to try to PM all of you about the same topic.

Since we weren't able to hold our Minkata expedition/tour yesterday :evil:

, I spent my down time working on my Minkata alignment map. Strangely, so far as I can tell, nobody has ever publicized this aspect of Minkata. (For my own part, I spent all my time exploring this about the Age back in 2008 just before the plug got pulled--I thought it was pretty obvious that things aligned in the Age and didn't realize we were supposed to figure out all those circuitous routes from the Ae'gura Library book.)

I was able to validate a few of the alignments yesterday before everything crashed. NOTE: the following maps are an overlaid hybrid from those done by tachzusamm and Andrew Plotkin. (Warning: the map images are *big* so you can see everything more clearly):

[Reveal] Spoiler: Kiva 1: one of the few map alignments that uses a sun

[Reveal] Spoiler: Kiva 1: the view from the ground

[Reveal] Spoiler: Kiva 2: green flag to red-orange flag

[Reveal] Spoiler: Kiva 3: red flag to red-orange flag

[Reveal] Spoiler: Kiva 5: this one has two working alignments, bonehenge to green flag and blue flag to kiva 1

Note: I didn't include many ground views of the alignments since when they are done correctly, there usually isn't that much to see! (The farther object is hidden behind the nearer.) If it would be helpful, I can add this information later.

Here are the alignments I haven't yet validated for various reasons:

[Reveal] Spoiler: Kiva 4: the two blue alignments are too far distant to visually align and navigate; the yellow flag alignment is suspect as I have not yet verified that the map placement for that flag is correct; I did not have time to validate the red alignment, which could be too far off to be valid

[Reveal] Spoiler: Yellow Flag: the mapped artifacts are *way* off here, however the Age alignment works correctly; the blue flag aligned with the southern/lowest sun will indeed take you to the yellow flag

Regarding the yellow flag as it has been mapped: I have paced off the distance between the blue and yellow flags numerous times and am confident in the numbers (1140 forward paces, 1410 backward paces). This is a very tricky navigation as a slight initial misalignment will cause you to veer way off, due to the overall length of the course. The only reliable way I've found (for myself) is to walk the course backwards. Every time I've aligned myself properly at the blue flag, turning around so I can walk forward introduces too much of an error.

There is a great deal of work left to do in weeding out the inaccuracies in the present map. I have yet to determine if the problem lies with the yellow flag position as mapped, with the suns as mapped, or with both. Another possibility is that the blue flag isn't mapped correctly, though I have been assuming this is less likely since the two maps I've overlaid (by tachzusamm and Andrew Plotkin) match.

What I've done to resolve the inaccuracies so far:

I have paced the distance between the yellow flag and one known destination point. If I can do the same for a second destination point, I *should* be able to validate if the yellow flag map location is correct.
I have created a version of the map showing the suns/shadows much farther away (this is an obvious inaccuracy in Andrew Plotkin's original). So far, though, this has not resolved the problem. The relative position of the sun in question shifts, but not nearly enough to map the alignment correctly.
I have gathered sufficient data that I can reliably translate forward paces to backward paces and vice versa (1BP=.8FP, 1FP=1.24BP).

What's left to do:

I need to find a second alignment with the yellow flag so I can gather a second set of paces. Once I have this, I can calculate both distances and check the validity of its mapped location.
Get some other explorers to check my work in the Age itself!!

I won't be able to head to the Cavern today since I have surface obligations (and Cal's recent PM/email says that both MOULa and Gehn are down at this point). So perhaps we can hope to meet up next weekend? Either earlier than before in MOULa, or on Gehn would be my first suggestions. And others are welcome to join us!!

The more researchers we have participating, the more accurate the results will be!! :wink:

Plus AlanD/Muttley still has some amazing views of the Age to show us! :shock:

[[Edit: fixed date typo]]

AlanD · **Posted:** Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:35 am

Do you know, when I started this thread I thought that nobody had any interest in Minkata and its peculiarities, or at least that nobody had the same interest as me in the structure of the age and how to navigate around it.

Well, I'm firmly put in my place

I have realised what needs to be done but not yet acted on that.

My defence is that I've only been here for a couple of months. Up until the end of 2012 I had only played the offline, published ages. Once I discovered that the online game was available I dived in, raced through the bits I knew already and jumped into Minkata as the only other age that can be played solo.

I'm still stumbling over new things that can be done by collaboration in the multi-user game. I've always known that Uru stands up well to replay, but the value to be gained from a group working together, even in the older ages, is an added, unlooked-for gift.

Ainia has done a huge amount of work in the age that I was simply unaware of. I'd searched the forums for any previous explorations, but not found any. It looks like I wasn't thorough enough. What she has posted above constitutes a foundation that can be expanded into a definitive survey. I hope to be able to contribute something useful to expand on what she's started

There are a huge number of things we can investigate in Minkata, too many for a single expedition, and so many that few would sign up for the whole project. I think that each expedition (should there be more than one) should concentrate on one or two aspects, and not be dogmatic about it. If somoeone wants to come along and just dance in the sand, fine, so long as they don't disrupt the team doing investigative work. Sometimes a view from outside your own task-driven thought process can be really beneficial.

To begin with, a set of standards is no bad thing. I've discovered some references on the old Guild of Cartographers site to mapping standards, which suggest the Male Avatars Running Stride as a standard of length. At the very least we need to verify
* That all male avatars have the same stride (I'd expect this to be true) and the same for female avatars
* The difference between walking and running stride for male and female avatars.
* The scaling for backstep vs forward step for both avatars
* The scaling for sidestep vs forward step for both avatars.

We have no other means of measuring distance in Minkata, so this is pretty fundamental.

It would be easy to make this into a game if lots of people came along and just wanted to have a bit of fun.

It's also important to note that speed may not be correlated to stride. I think that all avatars walk at the same speed i.e. they cover the same amount of distance in a given time. This is why timing, using a stopwatch, provides a good measure of distance run for all players. However, we need some speed comparisons to confirm this. Again this could be presented as track events, racing.

IF it is possible to get a good, consistent method of measuring distance in Minkata, then we can fix positions accurately using triangulation. Given an established baseline, the measurement of distance alone from two or more locations will establish the absolute location of an item on the map.

So establishing and agreeing a baseline is something that must be done early on as well.

There is much that can be done, and a lot of fun to be had doing it.

Ainia · **Posted:** Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:04 am

Shorah AlanD!

Muttley wrote:

Ainia has done a huge amount of work in the age that I was simply unaware of. I'd searched the forums for any previous explorations, but not found any. It looks like I wasn't thorough enough. What she has posted above constitutes a foundation that can be expanded into a definitive survey. I hope to be able to contribute something useful to expand on what she's started

I'm sure you were quite thorough, Alan

. All my Minkata research has been in my offline journal, dormant since the last Cavern closure. I didn't become active here on the forums until more recently (and I've been talking for the most part about my other research projects). Your recent interest in Minkata has motivated me to dust off my old journal and resume that project.

Muttley wrote:

To begin with, a set of standards is no bad thing. I've discovered some references on the old Guild of Cartographers site to mapping standards, which suggest the Male Avatars Running Stride as a standard of length. At the very least we need to verify
* That all male avatars have the same stride (I'd expect this to be true) and the same for female avatars
* The difference between walking and running stride for male and female avatars.
* The scaling for backstep vs forward step for both avatars
* The scaling for sidestep vs forward step for both avatars.

We have no other means of measuring distance in Minkata, so this is pretty fundamental.

Agreed!

Muttley wrote:

It would be easy to make this into a game if lots of people came along and just wanted to have a bit of fun.

It's also important to note that speed may not be correlated to stride. I think that all avatars walk at the same speed i.e. they cover the same amount of distance in a given time. This is why timing, using a stopwatch, provides a good measure of distance run for all players. However, we need some speed comparisons to confirm this. Again this could be presented as track events, racing.

Great idea!! It would be a bit like doing door runs except there won't be a donut reward for the participants.

Muttley wrote:

IF it is possible to get a good, consistent method of measuring distance in Minkata, then we can fix positions accurately using triangulation. Given an established baseline, the measurement of distance alone from two or more locations will establish the absolute location of an item on the map.

I'm pretty sure this is doable. Although it's both tedious and time-consuming, my own measurements between fixed locations in Minkata have been consistent; so I see no reason to expect others won't have the same experience.

And since I'm already posting here, I'll throw in a few history/story thoughts (from an PM conversation I've been having):

I've been wondering if the Minkata lesson book in the Library is a Yeesha artifact (after all, it sports no DRC stamp of approval). It seems to me she altered the Age to show us about the Bahro war and to send us on yet *another* of her Journeys, this time to show us the star patterns (walking the star patterns in day in order to find each kiva) and to demonstrate the realized star patterns at night (along with Bahro "magic"), all to drive home her message "find your path in the stars". Since this was all originally happening in the later times of the DRC restoration work, I'm wondering if Yeesha was trying to prepare us for her final message "find a way, make a home". Maybe her point is that we have to head for the stars to make a home... I wonder if the Bahro "magic" is supposed to play a part in that too. If I'm remembering events correctly, this was pretty much the last Yeesha lesson we were given (apart from her final speech in K'veer).

If all this is true, then these alignments would have been original to the Age, before Yeesha made her changes (those changes being the stone monuments in the kivas and bonehenge, the night/future version and "magic" we see there, plus her cluebook in the Ae'gura Library next to the Age linking book). And so the D'ni students would have been learning their surveying skills from the alignments I've been trying to map.

AlanD · **Posted:** Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:32 pm

Ainia wrote
I'm pretty sure this is doable. Although it's both tedious and time-consuming, my own measurements between fixed locations in Minkata have been consistent; so I see no reason to expect others won't have the same experience.

With respect to your alignment investigations, I've a technique which may help. If you know this one already, just bear with me while I describe it anyway.

[spoiler]Go to the first landmark. Find the position that gives you the best alignment with the second (maybe behind both and aligning them or back up to it and aim directly for the second, though this is not as accurate). Now sidestep a few paces so that your path ahead is clear. You retain the alignment, simply shifted sideways that few paces. Walk or run using the cursor keys to avoid disturbing the alignment. I've used this off the top of the bonehenge to avoid the ladder or inconvenient bone ribs.[/spoiler]

Ainia wrote
I've been wondering if the Minkata lesson book in the Library is a Yeesha artifact (after all, it sports no DRC stamp of approval). It seems to me she altered the Age to show us about the Bahro war and to send us on yet *another* of her Journeys, this time to show us the star patterns (walking the star patterns in day in order to find each kiva) and to demonstrate the realized star patterns at night (along with Bahro "magic"), all to drive home her message "find your path in the stars". Since this was all originally happening in the later times of the DRC restoration work, I'm wondering if Yeesha was trying to prepare us for her final message "find a way, make a home". Maybe her point is that we have to head for the stars to make a home... I wonder if the Bahro "magic" is supposed to play a part in that too. If I'm remembering events correctly, this was pretty much the last Yeesha lesson we were given (apart from her final speech in K'veer).

I've had thoughts along those lines. From what I've read the final message was essentially

Destruction is coming

Find a way

Make a home

with the implication that she had little hope of ending the Bahro conflict and that it would be back to deal destruction upon us. There are multiple options open to us even after that final message.

The need to spread ourselves wider than just this little blue marble is something of a passion of mine anyway.

"Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu, Einstein, Morobuto, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars." Commander Jeffrey Sinclair of Babylon 5.

Goodness me, I do go on a bit.

Ainia wrote
If all this is true, then these alignments would have been original to the Age, before Yeesha made her changes (those changes being the stone monuments in the kivas and bonehenge, the night/future version and "magic" we see there, plus her cluebook in the Ae'gura Library next to the Age linking book). And so the D'ni students would have been learning their surveying skills from the alignments I've been trying to map.

I have a theory (no it doesn't involve dinosaurs, keep it quiet at the back you Monty Python fans). The training age did originally have a night side. It makes sense for there to be some objectives for the student Surveyors to look for. The book may have been one way to find the solution, and if the candidate chose to run the course as described they may have got less marks than the ones who drew it out first. Or not, we don't know what the D'ni valued in Surveyors. Alignments between landmarks is another way to find the kivas, and we don't know if the flags were placed by the students or not.

My idea is that the kivas and the bonehenge originally contained linking books, so the only way back out of the age was to find a kiva, link to the night side, find the opened bonehenge and link out. Yeesha replaced the linking books with the stones and the glyphs, since she knew that we already had Relto books and could get home without needing a linking book in the age.

DLordofTime · **Posted:** Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:17 pm

So Minkata was actually two Ages?

Christian Walther · **Posted:** Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:19 pm

Muttley wrote:

I think that all avatars walk at the same speed i.e. they cover the same amount of distance in a given time. This is why timing, using a stopwatch, provides a good measure of distance run for all players. However, we need some speed comparisons to confirm this.

Unfortunately running speed is not constant for everyone. Those on slower computers and/or higher quality settings run more slowly. (Specifically, the speed is constant if you stay consistently above 10 frames per second, once you have frames that take longer than 0.1 seconds you slow down. All the details here.) It’ll get a bit better with Skoader’s physics updates that are on the Minkata shard now and are supposed to come to MOULa whenever the involved people have time.

AlanD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:00 am

Thanks for that information, Christian. So we will have to calibrate each volunteer and warn them to always use the same PC to join us if they want to help us survey and build up a more accurate map.

I'm running on reasonably good hardware at the moment (Asus G73, refurbished, from an eBay shop) and my journey times match those I've seen posted in walkthroughs. Though of course that's why those two flags are emblazoned with distance figures, so you can calibrate your running/walking speed.

It must be frustrating for anyone trying to follow, say, the Guild of Greeters walkthrough if they find that their times are way out. Though to be fair, the walkthrough does advise you to time yourself.

AlanD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:18 am

DLordofTime wrote
So Minkata was actually two Ages?

That's a corollary of my theory, yes. If my theory does not pass examination, then no.

I would like to think that some clever writers were brought on board to put together this training age combination, and that they were able to write two ages that were congruent but not identical. The purpose is obvious, to shake the trainees preconceptions and see how well they deal with the unexpected.

I feel this theory fits the observed facts well, but I'm open to alternative suggestions. No warranty expressed or implied. I'm always happy to find something new.

Ainia · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:48 am

Shorah again,

Yes, if AlanD/Muttley's theory about the D'ni use of linking books in Minkata is true (and that they linked to night Minkata), then by necessity they would be two different Ages.

As we already know, there are other possible theories too. Yeesha used to drive the DRC wild with her "habit" of taking their newly released Ages and altering them (e.g. adding the Journey cloths in the original five Ages). In the case of Minkata, so far as I'm aware, we don't know the differences between what the DRC officially released to us and what we actually found when the explorers began linking in. I have yet to find any commentary from the DRC about Yeesha changes to Minkata; however, this Age was released fairly late in the DRC's restoration process, after Watson and Engberg had started their own Yeesha Journeys (in addition to the earlier pilgrimages by Phil and Sharper). At that point, the DRC seemed to have recognized it was a waste of time to try to keep Yeesha from interfering in their restoration work (and some were in the process of or had already embraced Yeesha's views). Although we have no direct evidence that Yeesha altered the Age (e.g. no hologram message about the Minkata Journey), considering the current events at the time of its release, as well as the overall tendency of Yeesha to add her own twist to the Ages, I think it is extremely likely.

My own theory about day/night Minkata is that they are the same Age but at different times, with the night Minkata being in the far distant future. This would then mean that the D'ni use of the Age was exclusively day Minkata.

I have no idea if we'll ever figure out the "truth" of Minkata. But it's still worth doing the research and exploration, at least in my mind.

DLordofTime · **Posted:** Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:50 am

Well, two theories are better than one, especially if they are each as plausible as the other, Gives us something to gear experiments towards.

Enzan · **Joined:** Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:52 pm **Posts:** 77

The idea of Minkata secretly being two Ages sounds more like a Kadish trick than Guild policy. Linking from the kivas to the bone enclosure seems reasonable, but I think it would be more likely to be through a proxy r&r Age, somewhere to refill your canteen and brush the sand off.

Minkata navigation by day and night.

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