Ae'gura Investigations: Concert Hall Balcony

DaVinci · **Posted:** Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:49 am

ventris I was using basically the same method we used the other night. (reason I said rough measures :lol:

) Based on an average step, 30 inches, and number of steps, number of steps and time. Height was based on avatar height,5 foot 9 inches.
I can't say in this forum exactly how it was done, but to say I was not in Moula. Oh ya

(/me ) looks in pocket- you have 13 feathers in your pocket :lol:

Hope this explains it, if not catch me in-cavern.

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

DaVinci wrote:

...I have come to the conclusion this can be a theater venue.

DaV, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. Mostly, it seems we're having a tough time envisioning the configuration of the space relative to the inside, canyon and harbor views we can access.

Here are top and profile diagrams of the Concert Hall area. These are approximations, but pretty close to the true relationships of the parts we've discussed here. I didn't draw in every detail; for instance the foyer steps are just represented by a sloping line. And I won't have the time to add dimensions to every part of these drawings, though anyone else is welcome to do so (in fact you're welcome to alter these images in any way you see fit). Again, the only rough dimension I've estimated is the inaccessible interior hallway, which appears to be about 17.5 feet across and about 17.5 feet high.

(click for larger versions)
Looking at the profile view (and at the overhead view in the map animation below)shows that the rock this is all carved out of is really a long, very narrow rocky crest separating the harbor/bay area from the canyon area. Not much interior space is left in the area above the hallway/foyer and to the left of the exterior "balcony". Assuming the D'ni were the cleverest of engineers when it came to carving and strengthening rock, you can see that the area beneath the interior hallway and foyer could be used as auditorium space.

These diagrams are a reasonable approximation of the space available to work with in this thin crest of rock.
Beyond this, I'll leave you to conjecture about the configuration of this inaccessible, unseen interior.

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

Comparing the section of the DRC map (as seen on the Ae'gura plaza easel) to the overhead view of the Concert Hall area, we can see that the map is indeed just a rough sketch - at least in this small section.

So I'd guess that this map was either the result of a preliminary DRC survey, or was made more for its pictorial purposes, the way tourists are given rough maps with the key features exaggerated for easy reading.

ventris · **Posted:** Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:33 am

More great graphics Emor! Does the hallway and foyer really extend so far past the body of the interior space (if there is any existent interior)?

DaVinci could you put your measurements on your earlier diagrams? Is the 100 feet height from the floor of the Foyer down to the base of the Balcony which seems to be on the same level as the base of the built out area on the Foyer side?

Something I read somewhere gave me the impression that the doors hidden in the hallway are set across the hallway rather than on the back wall. Can anyone confirm their location? I note that the hallway floor slants to either side of the central door from the Foyer and if f the hallway follows the slant of the back wall of the foyer then the doors could be lower than the foyer floor depending on how far along they are.

The angle of the stairs in the Balcony appears to be such that they would reach the foyer level by the time they enter the actual rock. There really appears so little space at the base of the stairs for people to make the turn to or from the side passages that I keep trying to think what the stairs could be instead of stairs.

So far in the city there doesn't seem to be a great deal of seating. The meeting halls have none. Nor do the view points on the canyon. We would probably be within reason to suppose a theater without seating at least on some of the levels as in the oldest style European theaters. Balcony levels could fit in a 100' height quite easily.

If it's a theater in any way as we understand them. I am not very knowledgeable about D'ni architecture elsewhere. Does the Balcony interior resemble anything outside the cavern? I haven't gotten far in Riven but Gehn had some strange structures.

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

ventris wrote:

Does the hallway and foyer really extend so far past the body of the interior space (if there is any existent interior)?

I'm not sure what you mean here, ventris....the body of the interior space, as I understand it, is the rock crest itself, the grey area in both diagrams above. The hallway and foyer do not extend past this, except for a small overhang on the harbor/arch side of the crest.

My previous diagram showed this same relationship between the hallway and the cowled exterior "stage" overhang. It did not include the foyer and the form of the whole rocky crest. These diagrams show that although the space between the hallway and the "stage" is only enough for a small theater , there could be more space allocated below the hallway and foyer.

Quote:

...the base of the Balcony...The angle of the stairs in the Balcony.... Does the Balcony interior resemble anything outside the cavern?

I don't know what this Balcony you're referring to may be! The only balcony I mentioned in the diagrams is the upper exterior lip I showed in a previous snapshot. It is not interior, and it does not have any stairs, doors, or other means of access, which is why I put the "balcony" reference in quotation marks...I feel it's really not a balcony at this point, though it may once have been intended as such.

When discussing the features of previously-unnamed things like this, it helps to keep a clear nomenclature. Drawings - even a simple pencil sketch, labelled and scanned-in - can help others understand what you're referring to.

Quote:

Something I read somewhere gave me the impression that the doors hidden in the hallway are set across the hallway rather than on the back wall. Can anyone confirm their location? I note that the hallway floor slants to either side of the central door from the Foyer and if f the hallway follows the slant of the back wall of the foyer then the doors could be lower than the foyer floor depending on how far along they are.

What doors are hidden in the hallway? I have not heard about them, how were these discovered?
I can tell you the inner hallway does have a slight gentle slope downward, either side of the three doors from the foyer. But the slope is not as drastic as that of the ceiling line in the foyer, the floor of the hallway does not follow that ceiling line. Most of what appears to be a radical slope when viewing the hallway from outside in the foyer is due to the extreme shadows in the hallway.

ventris · **Posted:** Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:58 pm

I'm sorry I'm being unclear. If had any idea how to post graphics I most surely would but it seems to require complicated knowledge and more than one website. (heck, I haven't even figured out how everyone gets quotes to appear in the different color background and my attempts at smilies have not been successful)

When I say Balcony I mean the structure that juts into the canyon. When I say Foyer I mean the structure that faces the harbor. The hallway is what can be glimpsed through the three doors in the Foyer.

In your diagram showing the spaces from above, the green interior space is not as wide as the red hallway space. I wondered if the interior is actually that narrow or widens to the full width (length?) of the hallway.

DaVinci posted that the Balcony interior consists of a set of stairs with passages on each side. I have trouble seeing the details from any vantage in the cavern but the picture he posted gives an idea of the angle of the stairs.

I am slogging through my search histories for the last month or so to see if I can find the reference to the doors. Unfortunately when I started looking into the concert hall question I assumed that sometime over the years all of this had been figured out and posted and I just had to find the post. As a result I have wandered into all sorts of forums and threads without keeping track. I hoped that someone who could get beyond the barriers could tell us about the doors.

DaVinci · **Posted:** Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:11 am

ventris
The stairs I mentioned, may not be, in that picture I took they appeared to look like stairs but I can't confirm that

I have been to doing some more investigations and drawings on this concert hall for you. Emore is correct the aisle behind the barriers slope down until you are at the same level as when you enter the foyer.(about 7-8 feet) My drawings do not show this slope because the program I am using I am not familiar with, now using Emore's 17.5 feet units I made these. They may be a bit inaccurate but I think reasonable to get just a rough idea of what I think would be in there.

First Emore's drawning, youcan see where I struck a line for the bottom front structure.
http://postimg.org/image/v2ppw4q15/

Now trying to use the 17.5 feet unit I did this drawing and labeled it. I am relatively sure the upper foyer is accurate in perspective.
http://postimg.org/image/pid8lhr61/

Now the next 2 I inserted some characters to help visualization of the area.
http://postimg.org/image/s9wic3pop/

http://postimg.org/image/3uoab1qrt/

I added an interior balcony just to see what it could look like. Some may disagree with these drawings which is fine

, but if you want a first person idea of this space,go to the Gallery Mall by the stairs. Go into 1st person view and move towards the stairs until you can view the next landing up leading to the Concert Hall.

OH ya,, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything here it just some thing I find interesting to do and I am trying to be as accurate as I can with my explorations. But I am betting you can get 30 avatars standing in a straight line across that foyer

I may need to add more pics

ventris here is the places I was talking about

http://postimg.org/image/n3ujsjpop/

http://postimg.org/image/jy9y2c72h/

ventris · **Posted:** Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:24 pm

I was looking at the Chiso drawing of the balcony again and if you squint right it may say "stairs to Concert Hall" on the label pointing to the interior. HOW I wish they hadn't used an arty script. I still don't understand why the stairs should be there.

DaVinci · **Posted:** Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:46 pm

Here is a picture to give us an idea what a cavern theater could look like in a Real cavern

[Disclaimer: this may be a copyrighted pic all rights belong to BlueGrass Underground at Cumberland Caves...should this be a problem let me know]

Lordly · **Joined:** Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:10 am **Posts:** 46

I have a hard time drawing pictures in 3-d ..believe me, I've tried ..so I took a short-cut ..I'm still not convinced that the whole dome thing was there at one time....I love these questions 'bout the cavern...here is what I see...(I hope I set the brightness up enough for you to see it ventris) I can't draw it, but I still can envision a domed structure that was once here. It just looks like it fell off like the library courtyard? Although I can't find remnants of it as I can see the courtyard remains... Maybe the waters here are deeper?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tk0sBAV ... e=youtu.be

ventris · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:36 am

Thanks for the flyby Lordly. I think I see. Is it that the foyer is just one section of a full circle that used to either jut out from the rock or was supported by rock and both the rest of the circle and possibly the rock have fallen away?

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

ventris wrote:

In your diagram showing the spaces from above, the green interior space is not as wide as the red hallway space. I wondered if the interior is actually that narrow or widens to the full width (length?) of the hallway.

We have no idea what the interior is like; that area is closed off to us. So all we can do is conjecture about it, given the exterior clues we can gather.

We know the width and the angle of the enclosed cowled overhang, and I've been guessing the enclosed interior area of that cowl was used as the stage, and that this cowled stage had been built outside the rock cleft to optimize available audience space inside the concert hall. (Viewed from inside, I think the cowled area would remind you of a bandshell, as in a park)

I just imagined what the optimum seating area might be and drew an area based on that. Some auditoriums go wider, but the seating at the far sides is not so desirable and often means discounted ticket prices! I've extended the stage walls in a straight line and widened the green area in the top view for you, to indicate this. But, as I think DaVinci pointed out, the theater cannot go much wider because it would run into the stairway going down from the Foyer.

And, taking a cue from DaVinci, I added a couple tiny human figures to the profile view for scale, and colored the corresponding areas relative to the top view. This profile of the available theater space shows that even an interior balcony overhang could be part of the interior design.

(click for fullsize images)

Hopefully these additions clarify things a bit.

ventris wrote:

When I say Balcony I mean the structure that juts into the canyon. When I say Foyer I mean the structure that faces the harbor. The hallway is what can be glimpsed through the three doors in the Foyer.

I think we're all pretty clear on what the Foyer and Hallway areas are.

But, on the Canyon side, there are two levels of platforms within the hooded/cowled overhanging structure, each of which has been called a balcony (we still don't have any guesses about the lower, blue level!). There are also several overhanging platforms on the opposite side of the Canyon that can be called balconies. On the harbor/Arch side of the rock crest, DaVinci has postulated that the lowest horizontal bands in the stone are a balcony of some form, and I have shown that the uppermost extended lip has a basic railing that may indicate it was intended as a balcony at one time. Additionally, the extended diagrams here show that there could be room for a balcony inside the Concert Hall. So in discussing this area, I'd just advocate some specific nomenclature when referring to balconies.

Merriam may help:
1 : a platform that projects from the wall of a building and is enclosed by a parapet or railing
2 : an interior projecting gallery in a public building (as a theater)

ventris · **Posted:** Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:47 am

Well I think thanks to Emor and DaVinci we can see that there is space for a fine auditorium/theater inside the rock! I find the access to the space awkward but perhaps that is the D'ni way.

Emor D'ni Lap wrote

Quote:

But, on the Canyon side, there are two levels of platforms within the hooded/cowled overhanging structure, each of which has been called a balcony (we still don't have any guesses about the lower, blue level!).

DaVinci and Morpheus went to the lower, blue lit area we have referred to as the lower balcony when discussing the canyon side balcony structure. They made a pretty thorough examination of the space and paced out it's size. They found no sign of accessways to/from that part of the structure. DaVinci took pictures which I don't have to hand just now. That's where explorers stood to test the structure for any special acoustic properties.

As to the upper part of that same cowled balcony structure DaVinci reported:
[url]
http://postimg.org/image/i0gi960qx/[/url]

Quote:

This may have been the back part of the stage area for speeches and such you may notice what looks like stairs in center and a walkway to the right, and duplicated to the left (unseen in pic). There seems to be an inner and outer wall in that balcony.

Unfortunately he has said he cannot be certain about the interior structures.

The COLAB architecture site drawing http://colabarchitecture.com/colabstudio-designexplorations-portfolio.html (go to the Cyan section to see the drawings)has a label that may point to a stairway but those labels are difficult to say the least. We need to see if there is any way to gain more certain knowledge of that structure.

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

I think we still don't have any guesses about the purpose or functionality of the lower platform of the cowled structure overhanging the canyon, much less why it is illuminated with such a bright blue light. And all those ribs!

I agree, the upper level would make a fine place for an orator to address crowds on all the balcony structures overhanging the Canyon. But the lower level? Not so great for that purpose.

And I can pretty much verify that there are presently no stairs to/from either level of those platforms, nor any doorways built at this time that would give access from the exterior to the interior.

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

Adam Johnson wrote:

Kadish Gallery takes up 80% of the storefronts in the canyon.

Looking at the other lit doorways in the "mall" area, only the one to the left of the Gallery entrance would require stairs leading upward and to the left after passing through the doorway. All the others have plenty of developable space past their doors, especially if area above and below is considered.
(the darkened grating immediately to the left of the Gallery doors was apparently a one-time Gallery entrance, so is now sealed)

Adam Johnson wrote:

Are you sure about that?
Looks pretty unworkable (without some major cavern wall adjustment) to me. If it can't be done without breaking out errant geometry, then it's currently beyond what we can do... Unless you want to put a concert hall in a small cubbyhole.

Adam, that hallway you "floated" through in your video is just that: merely the entrance hallway to whatever lies in the interior. I am quite sure about the proportions I drew up in the diagrams above. If, for instance, that hallway you visited ended in stairs at both sides of a theater space, they could lead down to an interior balcony level and then further down to the back end of what could be a fairly good-sized - though not enormous - performance venue.

Quote:

... it's basically impossible to add anything that isn't already there.

Regarding the overall size of the City:
to me at least it seems understandable that Cyan would not attempt to build all of a Great Underground Empire all at once (apologies to Frobozz). Seems more practical to build a front end first, then see how it is received by the public...which is what they did.

As an example, we can all accept that the Guild Hall is only represented by a 2D-sprite image seen past the tops of nearby mountains, in a good-faith effort to show players something Cyan couldn't take the time to fully model. The Guild Hall and these nearby mountains are all forced-perspective representations of things intended to be much larger AND much further away.

The area of the City behind the Hall of Kings, behind the T-intersection and walkway to the Library, is as vast as it needs to be.

(edited to fix incorrect quote!)

Ae'gura Investigations: Concert Hall Balcony

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