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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Those Ages need to be removed from the game or have that stupid puzzle taken out.

A lot of us don't like the pod portals puzzle that much, but we still like the ages themselves. Why would you even suggest that the ages be removed when you go on right away to suggest a much more sane option of just removing the puzzles?

Although since the portals only give wedges (rather than being necessary to progress in other areas of the game). I personally don't think the pod portals get in the way enough to warrant removal.

If the pod time puzzle WAS removed, there would have to be a different system to get the wedges.

Whilyam wrote:
Should we start abusing people who help with the Delin and Tsogal "puzzles" too?

Obviously abusing people would be going too far for any subject. But there is nothing wrong with people just trying to discourage it and ask politely that they don't keep announcing portal times publicly.

Why do you type it like: "puzzles"? You don't think the garden puzzles are puzzles? I think the spiral cloth puzzles were actually a pretty clever idea, but I guess you don't.

Whilyam wrote:
I'd post more, but this is already a massive waste of my time. Get a life, people.

It's stupid for anyone to suggest that the meager time it takes them to think of and type a post/reply/argument really took anything of value from them when they are the one that chose to "waste" their own time by choosing to make their message.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:12 pm 
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Siren Drake wrote:
There is a conflict in the Cavern between people who want to have what they call "Public Service Announcements" of when the next Pod event occurs and people who want to protect new explorers from spoilers. Many people don't seem to recognize that making Pod announcements constitutes a spoiler, but it actually spoils the most important aspect of the Pod puzzle: namely that the Pods are on a regular cycle. Obviously, this is no longer news to people who have been playing Uru for the last seven years or more, but there are still new explorers logging in, and some of those new explorers are going to want to solve the Pod Ages for themselves, to include figuring out that the Pods are on a regular cycle. If the long term explorers aren't willing to take some trouble to protect new explorers from unwanted spoilers on how to solve puzzles in a game that is nothing but puzzles, then the long term explorers should not be surprised if the community does not grow, new explorers don't stay, and Cyan can't collect enough donations to fund new content.


Well, I've not experienced this as the big problem that you seem to have. I have very occasionally heard someone shout out that a pod portal is due, but put that down to bad luck. I've certainly not seen any regular PSA's of pod times or seen any conflict outside of this thread, which is in peril of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It will not be news to you that MOUL contains some puzzles that are meant to be solved alone, and some that are meant to be solved in groups. In my opinion, the pods fall firmly into the latter category, so it is not reasonable to avoid any mention of them in public chat.

I can see the argument for reducing spoilers as much as possible, but to do so in the case of the pods, and also for door runs, will result on everybody walking around as if on eggshells, afraid to speak in case of being accused of spoilers. That would kill any enjoyment in the public city for many, I think for most people.

Now, I've been the victim of self-appointed cavern police before now, and it is an unpleasant experience, even if you think (on sober reflection) that maybe they had a point. Alien's reaction earlier is pretty much the way I felt when it happened to me.

Siren Drake wrote:
So I am asking people to work on methods to get the word out about Pod events to the people who want to hear about them without broadcasting spoilers through public chat in the public instance of D'ni - Ae'gura using autoshout.


I think the best way is to keep things private: even if the request is made in public chat, reply in private if the reply involves spoilers. It isn't always easy to remember that , so we should not be jumping down peoples throats here, and most especially not in the public city. A simple River-Song-ish "spoilers", said with a grin, is the most that should be done, I feel.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:11 am 
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Oh my goodness. This subject is 3 pages long. Wow.

Personally, Alien, TrapperDave, and of course Annabelle have been
the greatest to me in the past.
Alien and I have had many talks and she is one of the best assets
to URU. She has more knowledge on her site that it should be in a book, and sold.
Love you Alien.

TrapperDave and I go back a long time. He and I have known each other for ages.
He has helped me learn a lot about the game and also about marker games. I think
we have both helped each other in many ways.
Love you Trapper.

Now for Annabelle. Who knows more about every inch of the game than Annabelle and
her huge group of avatars?
I remember when I first started playing the game and noticing out of the corner of my
eye an avatar hovering high above me and feeling shocked and amazed. She is number
one in my book. She is the reason I play marker games, even her most vicious ones.
Love you Annabelle.

Now about the spoiler issues.
I used to meet new explorers all the time. I haven't met one in a very long time. Who
are the new players? I helped a "new" player the other day and later found out she has
played the game for over a year. New names, changed avatars, same people. Very strange.
I heard someone announce a Pod one evening and they said that the portal should open in a
little while. No name of a Pod and no time. One of the Cavern Police said stop doing spoilers.
The person making the announcement said I didn't give anything away. The Cavern Police
called him a Troll. What? Very shocking way to treat others.

We have to learn to get along in the city or go to your own city and bring your friends and
family. We really need to stop the bickering. First the numbers, names, and now the pods.
What is going on?

We need Alien, Annabelle, and also TrapperDave in the game. I don't want them leaving.
Please stay my friends.
Everyone please, please, get along and quit taking the game so seriously. We seem to be
in a self destructive mode.

-Nicoleleigh-

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:04 am 
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Thanks Nicoleleigh (love you too) :) !

And don't worry I'm not leaving.

I'm just wondering if Siren read well what I wrote...

I'll repeat and it might help everyone understand the real issue maybe even the so-called "Cavern Police" will get it whoever they are (I don't know who they are since quite frankly I'm not logging much in public city).

We used to have a dedicated hood for newcomers called the GoG's Hood. We used to be welcomed by many old timers over there and the rules were really strick; you had to cooperate or leave. No spoilers, no public chat about a puzzle. Everything was monitored by Greeters. I could help someone which action I did but I had to stick to the rules, and it took time for them to let me freely answer others. Maybe because they had concern about my English (very poor back 4 years ago) or my relative ingenuosity (I knew a lot though because I played 2 years URU:CC before joining MOULa).

Now you are talking about the Public Ae'gura! It's a whole different story, a whole different environment. If you ask me, it's personally the last age I'm willing to spend the evening in.

You say "A", someone says, you shouldn't say "A", someone else says, you should say "B instead", a third one says "B ? Are you kidding, she should stick to "C" ", etc. It's the free for all over there. And you want what? Implement Netiquette "à la GoG".

No... it won't work, it's the public Ae'gura, "Welcome to the Jungle!"

The solution for me seems simple: repopulate the GoG's Hood and put strick rules of spoilers like back in 2010. The public city is not the place to put strick spoiler rules.

I'm open to try to follow some Netiquette for myself, but you cannot force everyone to do the same. Even the so-called "Cavern Police", if they call some 'willing to give puzzle out' explorers "troll" like Nicoleleigh wrote we are indeed in the Jungle in public city!!!

I return to my parallel with New York City.

I need to go to a specific place.

I have 2 choices:
a) ask a Tourist Info Centre employee (paid for this very matter: helping tourists)
b) ask that weird guy on the street corner looking suspect

What do you think I'll be most likely doing? :wink:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Yeah I trust that weird guy! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:47 am 
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Annabelle wrote:
Thanks Nicoleleigh (love you too) :) !

And don't worry I'm not leaving.

I'm just wondering if Siren read well what I wrote...

I'll repeat and it might help everyone understand the real issue maybe even the so-called "Cavern Police" will get it whoever they are (I don't know who they are since quite frankly I'm not logging much in public city).

We used to have a dedicated hood for newcomers called the GoG's Hood. We used to be welcomed by many old timers over there and the rules were really strick; you had to cooperate or leave. No spoilers, no public chat about a puzzle. Everything was monitored by Greeters. I could help someone which action I did but I had to stick to the rules, and it took time for them to let me freely answer others. Maybe because they had concern about my English (very poor back 4 years ago) or my relative ingenuosity (I knew a lot though because I played 2 years URU:CC before joining MOULa).

Now you are talking about the Public Ae'gura! It's a whole different story, a whole different environment. If you ask me, it's personally the last age I'm willing to spend the evening in.

You say "A", someone says, you shouldn't say "A", someone else says, you should say "B instead", a third one says "B ? Are you kidding, she should stick to "C" ", etc. It's the free for all over there. And you want what? Implement Netiquette "à la GoG".

No... it won't work, it's the public Ae'gura, "Welcome to the Jungle!"

The solution for me seems simple: repopulate the GoG's Hood and put strick rules of spoilers like back in 2010. The public city is not the place to put strick spoiler rules.

I'm open to try to follow some Netiquette for myself, but you cannot force everyone to do the same. Even the so-called "Cavern Police", if they call some 'willing to give puzzle out' explorers "troll" like Nicoleleigh wrote we are indeed in the Jungle in public city!!!

I return to my parallel with New York City.

I need to go to a specific place.

I have 2 choices:
a) ask a Tourist Info Centre employee (paid for this very matter: helping tourists)
b) ask that weird guy on the street corner looking suspect

What do you think I'll be most likely doing? :wink:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Yeah I trust that weird guy! :lol:


I agree that the Guild of Greeters is the best place for newcomers who are looking for help, but people new to the Cavern might not have ever heard of the Guild of Greeters, let alone know that they have a neighborhood or how to get there. Besides, I'm not talking about newcomers going to the Cavern and asking for assistance; I'm looking for a way for to avoid having newcomers arriving in the Cavern eager to meet other explorers or just picking the Cavern as the next place to go without knowing that there might be other explorers there only to have puzzles ruined for them when they haven't asked for any hints and didn't want them. I think it's sad that so many people seem to think that the solution is for new players to stay away from the Cavern until there's nothing left in the game to be spoiled for them. I doubt that anyone who had to do that would feel inclined to stay once he finished the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:17 am 
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What would have avoided all of this I think if the design would have given the players options on all ages in 3 components. 1. Solve all of them completely alone including delin, tsogal, the pods, ahnonay. 2. Solve all of them together with friends/buddies if you wanted. 3. A public instance of each age to hang out in. That way if someone doesn't want to be spoiled and do it themselves or with friends or hang out and all can be accomplished.

I have been around the block with this game for a long time even way before gametap. I haven't been on the forums for a long time until recently because of the bickering. I was given a lot of flack for my walkthrough when I wrote it because it steps you right through the journey and boy did people take issue with that, but it is ultimately up to the person to download it and read it. It was designed as a help and organization tool so nothing was missed. I don't think spoilers would drive new people away, it is more the bickering seen and lack of new content more than anything.

All in all it is a great experience and a very unique different game. We have no one else to thank for development and keeping it running for free none the less other than the crew at Cyan.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:23 am 
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When I first started playing this game, I just avoided the public city until I finished all the Ages, cause I figured some spoilers might come of it. I dunno, just seemed logical. The OP's suggestion of "encoding" your pod age alerts seems like the best idea, although I hear the logic in the counterargument that newcomers probably won't even know what you're talking about by "portal" and "pod ages."

Although attacking the pod ages based on what they are seems a bit ad hominem. Yeah, I don't like them either, but they're still a part of the game and whether they're well-designed or not isn't the point of this thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:21 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
For the record, I would always shout out Pod portal times (if I knew them and gave a hoot). The pod puzzle is absolutely horrible and not a puzzle at all (also, the timing is off. The Payiferen portal opens before the stones are illuminated). It's a waiting game. Potentially one that could drive players off. Those Ages need to be removed from the game or have that stupid puzzle taken out.

I too was around in the GameTap days, and I watched how the whole Pod thing unfolded. So do tell, just how exactly does this sequence of reasoning not constitute solving a puzzle?

--First Pod (Negliahn, right?) is released. People check out the local wildlife. Given enough monkeys with enough typewriters, eventually someone happens to be there at the right time and sees the portal appear. "Woah, a glowy spiral thing...and it links me to a Bahro cave! Cool."

--Word spreads. People hang out in the Pod at random hours trying to catch the portal themselves. Some industrious folks eventually figure things out: the portal appears at set intervals, and with a bit of collaboration a schedule is established and shared.

--The next Pod (Payiferen I think) comes out. Perhaps not surprisingly, people start seeing a portal appear in that one too, and its interval is discovered. Perhaps more surprisingly, that interval is the exact same as Negliahn's. The prominent visual clue in Payiferen reinforces the notion that the portal appearances are based on a daily cycle. Then comes the huge revelation...could both Pods be on the same planet?

--The release of the Pod Age confirms the hypothesis. From there, finding the remaining portals is a simple matter of math.

This was every bit a puzzle, and what's more, it was unique from all others in Uru in that it was a community puzzle. It would take a single person an inordinate amount of time, or else extraordinary good luck, to catch enough random portal openings to piece together what was going on. Instead, the entire community pooled its collective resources and were able to solve the mechanics of the Age (and probably more quickly than Cyan expected, to boot). Now you can certainly argue about how well the puzzle was executed, or even whether these sorts of puzzles have any place in the game at all, but to call it anything else is completely disingenuous.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:14 am 
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ok I think what I'm trying to tell from the very beginning is really hard to understand so now i'll make it as simple as I can...

You cannot force everyone to do what you want them to do.

Is this more clear now?

I hope because I'm getting tired of trying to explain this in different ways and still getting the same answer everytime: "But what about the new guys coming into the city, they didn't ask to be spoiled!"

Yeah! Well... life is harsh! What can I say :? :lol:

Do serve me the same answer again, you'll see my nasty side :lol: :wink:

I feel like there is no solution because you are trying to shovel clouds here. Have you ever try to shovel clouds? It seems like a hard task... let me tell you it is! That's what you are trying here.

Because even if you get some consensus here on the forum... how can you apply the solutions found here? You go in the city and tells everyone to follow rules of some post on MOULa forum? Good luck!

It has nothing to do with positivism or negativism, it has all to do with realism.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:14 am 
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Top Gun wrote:
This was every bit a puzzle, and what's more, it was unique from all others in Uru in that it was a community puzzle. It would take a single person an inordinate amount of time, or else extraordinary good luck, to catch enough random portal openings to piece together what was going on. Instead, the entire community pooled its collective resources and were able to solve the mechanics of the Age (and probably more quickly than Cyan expected, to boot).

And that is the problem: it was a one time effort. The nature of the pods is now as surprising as the identity of Rosebud in Citizen Kane. Anything can happen, but I find unlikely for newcomers to gather again the numbers and the momentum to redo all that, when they’re likely to be welcomed with a “yeah, yeah, we know” in the public Ae’gura.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:17 am 
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I like the Pod Ages, they teach patience and observation.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:49 am 
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Siren, I know your heart is in the right place and I want to commend you for the way you've approached this topic and handled the criticism. Kudos. I do hope you manage to get a few people on board with your ideas and that they'll set an example for others. Not everyone will, of course, and there will always be the risk of hearing spoilers when visiting the city. But, I believe that the kind of people who choose to play a game like this will be aware that visiting any public space is a risk and will make their choices accordingly. I like the idea of making use of the Guild of Greeters hood to help newcomers in a more controlled setting. Someone should send a request to Cyan to have the hood stickied on the nexus, again.

I hate the use of the term, "cavern police." Name-calling is a lazy way of disagreeing with someone.

I was in MOUL when the pods were released, but I was too busy socializing, following the story, playing IC, and becoming a Greeter to solve them before others did and the details were made public. I didn't care at the time, but when I read about Yellowdog's experience in solving them, I was disappointed that I hadn't solved them on my own.

One Explorer's experience in the Pods *SPOILER*

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:42 pm 
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@ Nicoleleigh : ^-^ My dear cavern friend, love ya too :) I needed you to knock some sense into my head :)
Nicoleleigh said: "We really need to stop the bickering. First the numbers, names, and now the pods.
What is going on?"
I agree the KI # thread, then the names, & now the pods? I was glad when Chogon locked the thread up! It was getting ridiculous. * Edit: I agree that 4 pages of this is much too much! This is all I have to say on this thread, because I can think of no solution. But I will go along with whatever is agreed to by all.

Alien said: " You can all bicker among yourselves, I'm out of it. Have fun." at the start of this thread.
--
I sure hope this all doesn't come across as bickering, but rather an intelligent discussion?
--
Annabelle said: " No... it won't work, it's the public Ae'gura, "Welcome to the Jungle!"
I think this statement says it all :) It is just like the RL world, if you go out in it, you find out quickly you can not insulate yourself from bad things.
--
@ korovev: your number system is one soloution, good idea, but will it work? As Annabelle said someone pops in and hasn't read the forum or heard about the new rule ?
--
Annabelle said: ".... even the so-called "Cavern Police" will get it whoever they are (I don't know who they are....."
Nicoleleigh mentioned the Cavern Police calling a Player a Troll.
I have not met the Cavern Police and was unaware of them? Are they self appointed or officially sanctioned by Cyan? I think the Cavern Police should be placed in the bottom of the lake trolling for pellet fish :) *Edit: I can not think of a reason to have police ?
--
@ Siren Drake
Siren Drake said: "Hope I don't try your patience with my reply!" & "So what did you think about the idea of korovev's idea of saying "Portal 25 opening in half an hour." instead of "Tetsonot portal in half an hour."? I thought it was a great idea!"
I know you have good intentions :) ( I am just trying to help).
To answer your original question: No one should spoil the game with spoilers announced in Public Chat. I agree! And the number system that korovev suggested is something that might help a little.
I don't know how you could enforce it. But there is no easy solution that will work, even if the Pod books were removed from the public city. I think 90% or so of the game is Spoiler Free, which is pretty good! I think to achieve 100% spoiler free is impossible. I will attempt explain why?
--
Annabelle is right when she said: "You cannot force everyone to do what you want them to do."
The public city is like going out into the Real World. Not everybody is there to solve Spoiler Free puzzles. May I ask you Siren drake if you have heard announcements of " Pod Parties","Fissure Parties",and my friend janeerah holds Age Gatherings to all ages. Let alone the Magic bots glitching all corners of the game. The old glitching ( don't like the word ), or skydiving was frowned upon by some
thinking skydiving should not be done because it wasn't natural. Well now we have the ultimate glitching with the magic ( which was the old fun house).
So I ask you if a Fissure Party is a Spoiler for the Cleft Journey? I am just trying to point out there are countless ways the game can get spoiled for hard core puzzle solvers. Maybe you can live with 90% Spoiler Free game? If not I think Cyan would have to make major changes. Most of us try our best not to Spoil the game for others! There are what we call " griefers" that are there to intentionally spoil the game for others. In conclusion ( still having patience), I will take you skydiving, one of my passions, & you will learn patience very quickly :)
Edit: Just trying to point out here there are countless ways a newbie can get exposed to spoilers in the city by going to different events. Not in no way against the events. Just do not know what can be done to prevent it?

** I have no easy answer for you ! **

*Edit: ( Removed because it was off topic & in bad taste) Thanks Acorn:)

--
In conclusion :D I like what Annabelle said:
"Yeah! Well... life is harsh! What can I say :? :lol:
"....."
I feel like there is no solution because you are trying to shovel clouds here." :)
--
I thought the above line about shoveling clouds was very funny ( had me laughing), but not in sarcasm to this topic.
I do not think there is a solution either! Maybe try to get along with 90% or so of Spoiler Free?

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Last edited by TrapperDave on Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:09 pm 
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hey, TrapperDave, please can you put your Elodea spoiler in a spoiler tag? like this
[Reveal] Spoiler:
let's not spoil wonderful Elodea for people, eh?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:24 pm 
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Here we go again.

I hereby request that this thread be locked and double locked.

Let us move on.

Thanks,

-Nicoleleigh-

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