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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:50 am 
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A lot of problems could be solved if Cyan would license the content for other platforms. So far, they have declined to do so, AFAIK.

There is some personal development where Uru is being ported to Unreal and other platforms. But, for other than personal use... that is a no no.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
A lot of problems could be solved if Cyan would license the content for other platforms. So far, they have declined to do so, AFAIK.

There is some personal development where Uru is being ported to Unreal and other platforms. But, for other than personal use... that is a no no.


Exactly how does this comment in anyway contribute to the discussion of Fan Content in Uru? In what way would any of the problems related to that issue be solved if Cyan licensed the content for other platforms? Oh. Right, it doesn't. And it wouldn't.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:01 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
A lot of problems could be solved if Cyan would license the content for other platforms. So far, they have declined to do so, AFAIK.

There is some personal development where Uru is being ported to Unreal and other platforms. But, for other than personal use... that is a no no.


So in order to expedite the process of adding new stuff to MOULa the solution is to extend the license to stuff can be made in engines that have no connection with MOULa what-so-ever?

I like me a challenge but...yeah...

My comment in regards to this:

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That really depends on how soon the mechanism for adding this stuff to the server crops up.


Was directed at the Maintainer Nexus concept which Chloe was working on. It was a polite way of me saying "it's being worked on, I don't know how well it's going and I understand Chloe has her own life outside of this project".

Given that the Maintainer Nexus area has become the gateway for this intangible content there are several things that hinge on it being completed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:35 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
Nalates wrote:
A lot of problems could be solved if Cyan would license the content for other platforms. So far, they have declined to do so, AFAIK.

There is some personal development where Uru is being ported to Unreal and other platforms. But, for other than personal use... that is a no no.


Exactly how does this comment in anyway contribute to the discussion of Fan Content in Uru? In what way would any of the problems related to that issue be solved if Cyan licensed the content for other platforms? Oh. Right, it doesn't. And it wouldn't.


Perhaps by opening up new opportunities for those who are not familiar with the existing platform but have the know how and the funding to port Uru live and add fan ages on another platform that's more high end and up to date? Not that theirs anything wrong with Uru Live's current game engine (if that's what a new platform is referring to) aside from a few gray hairs, Cyan still uses it....right?

Just a wild guess mind you

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Last edited by Karkadann on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:55 pm 
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I thought the point was that people can make content for the uru on the plasma engine if they want.
If uru was to port to a different engine it would be a complete re-make of the game...It seems odd that this is being suggested as a solution.

A better solution would be for the 3ds max plugin to be updated to support max 2015 meaning you can downoad the student free version of max for non commercial use. This would be legal as the contents not being sold.

I have no idea how the plugin can be upgraded, the time-frame needed etc, it just seems like a more constructive long term solution. Short term, people are creating awesome ages, using the tools that are avalible.

I cant wait for the new intangibles content! Good work!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Suggesting the use of new modern game engines always draws opposing comments here, which is fine. But, keep it real.

ChloeRhodes wrote:
Exactly how does this comment in anyway contribute to the discussion of Fan Content in Uru? In what way would any of the problems related to that issue be solved if Cyan licensed the content for other platforms? Oh. Right, it doesn't. And it wouldn't.

First, it would be easier for new age writers to create content and get it into a system. They would be able to use up to date modeling software that can be legally used for their projects (except for the Cyan license issue) rather than try to hunt down old software that can no longer be licensed. Use of new platforms provides support for Windows, Mac, tablets, and mobile devices without having to do much more than make an output selection.

There are numerous reasons that those developing new games use the new platforms over the old Plasma engine. What new game developer is using Plasma? How many are using Unreal, Unity, Cry? Notice a pattern?

What would help Cyan is the fact that with the new platforms, Cyan would not need to run game server. They would not need to deal with fan content. All their concerns could be handled in a license agreement. If we can ever get a license agreement from Cyan, fans can do it all. So, most all the issues that hold back fan development of MOUL and burn up Cyan time could be resolved.

So, by allowing the use of other platforms it does solve most of Cyan’s issues and offers much faster pathways for the addition of fan content.

Tweek wrote:
So in order to expedite the process of adding new stuff to MOULa the solution is to extend the license to stuff can be made in engines that have no connection with MOULa what-so-ever?

Gee… How much connection was there between Obduction and Unity? How much connection was there between the platforms Cyan is using now to port their games to mobile devices? Staying with old software and conforming to the limitations of a legacy game just adds unnecessary restriction and complications. After 11 years with Second Life even Linden Lab has started building a new world from scratch. And they are maintaining Second Life with almost weekly server and client releases along with adding features and a constant stream of bug fixes.

Karkadann wrote:
Not that theirs anything wrong with Uru Live's current game engine (if that's what a new platform is referring to) aside from a few gray hairs, Cyan still uses it....right?

Does Cyan still use it, for anything other than MOULa? I don’t think so. Their newest project is using Unity, if I remember correctly. If you don’t consider having to use unlicensed software to build for it a problem then I suppose one could say there are no problems. But, I can point to several.

Slightlybartfast wrote:
I thought the point was that people can make content for the uru on the plasma engine if they want.
If uru was to port to a different engine it would be a complete re-make of the game...It seems odd that this is being suggested as a solution.

People are free to use the Plasma Engine. They just have to be willing to use old and often unlicensed software to do it. The alternative is to figure out the maze of gotchas involved in working with newer software and porting back to Plasma.

I’m not sure what is odd about considering porting to new platforms/engines. Cyan has and is doing it. Fans here have done it. We just haven’t been able to talk Cyan into licensing the already completed work.

What is odd is sticking with a system that puts so many roadblocks in the way.

Mac_Fife wrote:
No, I think it was released for Max7 because it's what Cyan had to hand. I don't imagine there was any intent to encourage use of 'bootleg' copies of old Max versions.

I can agree with you and lunanne on Cyan’s intent and that they did what was expedient at the time. But, we have years of results and we now know what it encourages.

Slightlybartfast updates us on Autodesk’s licensing. Technically an honest person that is not a legitimate student cannot develop using their old software. And the plugin for Max 2012 has its issues, which is another problem for those new to building for MOUL.

It is possible to build for MOULa. But, as it is now it is like learning Latin, a dead language almost no can speak, to write a book. It is much easier to write in a common day language where there is a wealth of tutorials, classes, and communities to help a person.

After years of listening to the mantra that fan content is coming, enough people have given up we are reaching a point where donations are barely supporting the server costs. Something needs to change.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:25 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
What would help Cyan is the fact that with the new platforms, Cyan would not need to run game server. They would not need to deal with fan content. All their concerns could be handled in a license agreement. If we can ever get a license agreement from Cyan, fans can do it all. So, most all the issues that hold back fan development of MOUL and burn up Cyan time could be resolved.

What this perhaps ignores is the possibility that Cyan actually want to run a server, just as you could argue that Linden don't need to run server. Besides, without a "home" shard I think you'd see a faster decline of the community than at present as it fragments into various shards, irrespective of any new content.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:28 pm 
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I'd be interested in seeing the plan and timeline to convert all existing MOULa content and code to a new platform without taking time away from Cyan when it is a fairly major effort to add a fan gateway consisting of two new ages.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:35 pm 
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Wow..just...wow.. I don't even know where to begin with this.

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First, it would be easier for new age writers to create content and get it into a system. They would be able to use up to date modeling software that can be legally used for their projects (except for the Cyan license issue) rather than try to hunt down old software that can no longer be licensed. Use of new platforms provides support for Windows, Mac, tablets, and mobile devices without having to do much more than make an output selection.


Easier is a subjective term. True that specific version of Max is hard to get but other systems present their own issues, having to learn an all new program, complete lack of documentation for said program. That of course comes after you have to port all of MOULa to this new engine which quite frankly is a mammoth task and is not going to happen.

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There are numerous reasons that those developing new games use the new platforms over the old Plasma engine. What new game developer is using Plasma? How many are using Unreal, Unity, Cry? Notice a pattern?


I do, one is an in house engine that has been rather flawed from the get go and is now over 10 years old. The other is an engine that runs on subscription/licenses that is constantly updated and improved with each new release. It's like expecting a model T ford to hold its own against a Bugatti.

What new game developer is using the engine Pong was written on?

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What would help Cyan is the fact that with the new platforms, Cyan would not need to run game server. They would not need to deal with fan content. All their concerns could be handled in a license agreement. If we can ever get a license agreement from Cyan, fans can do it all. So, most all the issues that hold back fan development of MOUL and burn up Cyan time could be resolved.

So, by allowing the use of other platforms it does solve most of Cyan’s issues and offers much faster pathways for the addition of fan content.


But Cyan wants to run a sever...we wouldn't have MOULa if they didn't and they certainly wouldn't have approached us about the Intangibles project. Fan content does involve licenses..it always has, that is what FCALS are.

Using other platforms does not solve most of Cyan's issues and it certainly doesn't allow for a faster pathway for additions of content and here is why...

You will have to port an entire game to a new engine. Oh sure you could probably import the Age models into whatever platform you are using, but then you may find you have to reapply every texture, vertex painted areas, lighting, collision. Then..because we are now using a different platform.. all the things that make the game are now broken. Avatar animation triggers, levers, doors, animations, KI, Nexus, Great Zero, Journals, maps, and letters. All of this will need to be redone and fixed. New engine...new physics. So all those little numerical tweaks they had to do back when they switched from Havok to PhysX...yeah those will have to be done again. Oh and if the new engine uses different water values instead of wavesets..well we're going to have to replace all of those too. Of course there are the imagers as well and how players interact with that, if the new engine doesn't support it that will have to be redone. The Cleft, Gahreesen, Teledahn, Kemo, Gira, Watchers Pub, Er'cana, Ahnonay Catherdral, Ahnonay, Sphere 1, 2, 3, 4, Delin, Tsogahl, Minkata, Jalak, Ae'gura, Kirel, The Hoods, The Great Zero, Relto... the list goes on, all of these would require a ridiculous amount of fixing.

You know what is holding up the first fan Age from getting onto the MOULa server at the moment? Some scripting for the Maintainer Nexus. That's it.. we already have MOULa compatible Ages and locations ready to go.

Quote:
Gee… How much connection was there between Obduction and Unity? How much connection was there between the platforms Cyan is using now to port their games to mobile devices? Staying with old software and conforming to the limitations of a legacy game just adds unnecessary restriction and complications. After 11 years with Second Life even Linden Lab has started building a new world from scratch. And they are maintaining Second Life with almost weekly server and client releases along with adding features and a constant stream of bug fixes.


None, Obduction runs on Unreal 4. Incidentally, aside from Uru they also used Plasma for EoA and Hex Isle. But in the case of MOULa it's not a case of staying with old software for the sake of it..it's staying with old software because that is what the game is on. As I touched upon above porting MOULa to something else is not easier, or quicker. You would in effect be remaking the entire game over again...

Quote:
People are free to use the Plasma Engine. They just have to be willing to use old and often unlicensed software to do it. The alternative is to figure out the maze of gotchas involved in working with newer software and porting back to Plasma.

I’m not sure what is odd about considering porting to new platforms/engines. Cyan has and is doing it. Fans here have done it. We just haven’t been able to talk Cyan into licensing the already completed work.

What is odd is sticking with a system that puts so many roadblocks in the way.


No they don't have to be willing to do that. As mentioned elsewhere Max is not the only avenue for content creation. Blender is easily available with plenty of documentation for Age creation. The Guild of Writers have developed a conversion program (forget the name..Transistor..Translator? something like that) which will convert UruCC stuff to MOULa stuff. I can't comment on how well it works as I've never used it. The GoW is also working on Kormahn which is Blender based that supports UruCC and MOULa content construction.

Quote:
I can agree with you and lunanne on Cyan’s intent and that they did what was expedient at the time. But, we have years of results and we now know what it encourages.

Slightlybartfast updates us on Autodesk’s licensing. Technically an honest person that is not a legitimate student cannot develop using their old software. And the plugin for Max 2012 has its issues, which is another problem for those new to building for MOUL.

It is possible to build for MOULa. But, as it is now it is like learning Latin, a dead language almost no can speak, to write a book. It is much easier to write in a common day language where there is a wealth of tutorials, classes, and communities to help a person.


It is like learning Latin in the sense that you are learning something new...but that is far as it goes. I learned Age building in 6 months, and release Fahets and Cass. I did this by following the wealth of tutorials and guides found on the GoW wiki and forums. Whilst admittedly my content has little in the terms of interactivity (which I am learning to add..again with the wealth of information over at the GoW), people seem to like what I product. The only aspect to my content creation that I didn't get from GoW tutorials was an understanding of D'ni lore (which I picked up from the games anyway) and my background in art and design. The Latin comparison is a flawed one, but if you wish to keep it, in this case Latin is not dead but a well documented language. The forums, wiki, IRC all have help, advice, tutorials and guides to help people start building. In my opinion the only thing that's been keeping building back is their lack of desire.

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After years of listening to the mantra that fan content is coming, enough people have given up we are reaching a point where donations are barely supporting the server costs. Something needs to change.


Well, driving off (directed in general to the community here) most of the content creators over the years with hostilities has only set all this further and further back. Heck if this intangibles project didn't involve the Ages/areas it did I'd not be working on it I'd still be building my own stuff for UruCC in my quiet corner where I don't have to deal with the drama that has unfortunately enveloped Age building over the years.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:11 am 
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Nalates wrote:
There are numerous reasons that those developing new games use the new platforms over the old Plasma engine.....<snip>

...and here we are, rehashing the same discussion we had almost exactly a year ago, as if it never happened...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:17 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
Easier is a subjective term. True that specific version of Max is hard to get but other systems present their own issues, having to learn an all new program, complete lack of documentation for said program. That of course comes after you have to port all of MOULa to this new engine which quite frankly is a mammoth task and is not going to happen.

Free legal software is no small thing.

The thing about learning new programs is the return on one’s learning investment. Since I was talking about new people coming into the community, the advantage to using a platform that is updating to keep up with advancing tech makes much more sense to me than learning a dead language/platform.

There is the issue of porting to a new platform. I agree it is a massive effort. But, your claim it won’t happen is wrong. It already has happened, a number of times and is ongoing. The Licensing and other issues keep most of that work out of the public’s eyes and off this forum.
Tweek wrote:
What new game developer is using the engine Pong was written on?

Are you agreeing with my point, or disagreeing? It seems I made my point… no one except hobbyists with a love for antique game engines uses them.
Tweek wrote:
But Cyan wants to run a sever...

Nice. But, MOULa needs to pay for itself. Currently that is border line and they likely won’t be able to afford it… or may be more accurately; be able to justify the cost for the number of people playing. As Mac_Fife points out a dispersing of the community to private servers might drive donations below a level that can support the cost of the servers. So, allowing fans to run and PAY for their own servers may be a wise consideration.
Tweek wrote:
Using other platforms does not solve most of Cyan's issues and it certainly doesn't allow for a faster pathway for additions of content and here is why...

You go back into porting being the problem. But, fans have already done most of the work you point to.

And since all that work and running the servers moves away from Cyan all they are left with is licensing. They move out of production and maintenance and that is the area in which most of the problems with MOULa fall. So, yeah it does solve most of their MOULa issues.

I think it is faster because no developer is dependent on Cyan and the long path into MOULa to get their work into a server they, as a fan, are running.

If they, Cyan, wants to maintain control of the content and how the game may grow, then such a move is going to be anthemia. And that may well be the case. But, on a solely technical basis moving to a new platform removes most of the hindrances and obstacles Plasma and Cyan present.
Tweek wrote:
None, Obduction runs on Unreal 4.

Correct. My mistake, not Unity. But, my point is still valid. You ignored the fact I presented that Cyan is using new platforms for all their new work. Yes, once upon a time long ago they used these old platforms that were once upon a time new. And the last work they did with those platforms, I believe, that was with versions they updated and did not release to public domain.
Tweek wrote:
No they don't have to be willing to do that. As mentioned elsewhere Max is not the only avenue for content creation. Blender is easily available with plenty of documentation for Age creation. The Guild of Writers have developed a conversion program …

You confirm the point I made without rebutting it. Yes, they can use Blender and the GoW conversion programs. I conceded that point. But, the point I made in connection was those people do have to be willing to do what I pointed out: learn the gotcha’s and how all that conversion works. Read the docs, read the forum at openuru.org. There is a lot to learn and a load of problems people run into and need help sorting out. And all that learning is for a one app use. The Plasma knowledge has almost no other application.
Tweek wrote:
It is like learning Latin in the sense that you are learning something new...but that is far as it goes. …

I think you missed the point that learning Latin is an analogy for a VERY limited use application. If one wants to invest in Plasma, that is fine. For anyone that wants to learn modeling and have skills useful for the coming rush of VR worlds, I can’t see where it is the smartest choice.

By keeping up with tech it would be much more likely that a larger community would be available for writing ages. Trying to convince people to learn Plasma when Unreal, Unity, and Cry are so much more popular and up to date for use with VR Oculus Rift and that whole phenomenon seems to be a major and unnecessary obstacle.

And as you mention, age building in the small tight community is drama bound. All communities have drama, at least in my experience. But, in larger communities it is easier to find a circle of like minded developers. Plus, if something distracts one developer, there numerous others that can fill in, so the project continues to move forward.

I’m glad you enjoy building ages for Plasma and I appreciate your effort. Also, the effort of others that decide to build ages and development tools.

I continue to think there are better, even if not more joyful for you and others, ways to grow MOULa and invigorate the community and that more people will enjoy building in modern platforms.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:42 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
I continue to think there are better, even if not more joyful for you and others, ways to grow MOULa and invigorate the community and that more people will enjoy building in modern platforms.

That's nice.

But it is not the task with which the Intangibles group has been charged, and it is not the topic of this thread. Won't you please go derail some other thread?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:51 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
As Mac_Fife points out a dispersing of the community to private servers might drive donations below a level that can support the cost of the servers. So, allowing fans to run and PAY for their own servers may be a wise consideration.
No, that's not what I was pointing out at all. To be perfectly clear, what I said was that if you remove the Cyan run servers, which you were suggesting would be a benefit, the actual effect would be to hasten the demise of the game by fragmenting the community.

(I agree with Emor that all of this debate is off-topic for this thread.)

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