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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:57 pm 
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Another thing you could consider is making the examples slightly smaller and indent them, like this:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sehd seD Ut perspiciatis, unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem.
— — Accusantium doloremque laudantium, totam rem aperiam eaque ipsa:
— — — — quae ab illo inventore veritatis, et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt, explicabo.
— — — — Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem, quia voluptas sit
1– — — — [aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur.]
2– — Magni dolores eos, qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt:
— — — — neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum
— — — — quia dolor sit amet consectetur adipisci, velit


1. No need to indent more, since the D’ni text is bold.
2. Better visual contrast in sub-sections.


This way the example texts wouldn’t even need to be colored except for the highlighted word, as they’d be already distinguished from the rest.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:20 pm 
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korovev wrote:
So “endlessly” would be rilzuetsesh, or would riltezu work too?


I would think that you could certainly use a phrase such as:

dovah rilte zuh ‘world without end’

And so by extension from something hyperbolic like:

erthmeestahv rilte zuh 'a speech without end'

since rilte is actually attested following a verb, you could presumably say:

kokahnræd roo bodomeesen rilte zuh = approx. 'I thought he/she would go on speaking without end'

Of course this would be close but slightly different to:

kokahnræd roo bodomeesen tsahn 'I thought he/she would always be speaking/would be speaking forever'.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:31 pm 
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korovev wrote:
This way the example texts wouldn’t even need to be colored except for the highlighted word, as they’d be already distinguished from the rest.


No one needs to use color. But who said that it was better to use black and white whenever possible? and why did you believe them? :wink:

EDIT: Speaking of colors, and given that this is ostensibly an art-appreciation thread -- I got to thinking about the colors words we know, and whether we can learn (or speculate) anything further from them. One term we have is:

roodsh = 'red'.

This looks like it has the familiar suffix -(e)sh but in an unusual form without the e but following a consonant. I wonder if this is because the underlying 'base' is *rood and this is a noun rather than an adjective, some commonplace object or substance that is naturally red in color -- perhaps 'blood' or 'rose' or 'ruby'.

The significance (in my thinking) is that other colors might be formed in a similar way, e.g. *gilosh = 'green'.

2nd EDIT: We also have:

trel = 'blue'.

This looks like t(e) 'in/of' + *rel 'sky', itself derived from r(e) 'the' + el 'high'; thus (by the way) Relto means 'the high place' but it also would mean 'sky-place' :o

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:44 am 
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Perhaps the initial form was *rood’sh, and eventually the schwa faded away.

It should be noted that in some human languages blue and green are shades of the same color, but some others have a specific word for sky-blue distinguished from blue.
There was a theory that in all human languages, colors are defined in a specific order: black and white, red, green or yellow, blue (when distinguished), etc.
One could also wonder how much of the D’ni population was color-blind; in the Cavern environment it would be difficult to distinguish most blues from greens.


As for web design, I blame GeoCities-era webpages on one side and Jakob Nielsen on the other :P
I didn’t say I dislike the D’ni Dictionary color scheme, anyway. I just think it could use a little bit more contrast. Like in the “tahgehmah b’zoo ah rehkor” and “ahneeteeah sifai” examples under -ah.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:26 pm 
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korovev wrote:
One could also wonder how much of the D’ni population was color-blind; in the Cavern environment it would be difficult to distinguish most blues from greens.

I don't think the D'ni were unable to distinguish blue and green. There are ages that have blue water and green grass (Gahreesen, Eder Tsogal, and to some extent Eder Kemo) which would have been impractical if they could only distinguish those colors by brightness. And in Gahreesen's small fortress, the KI symbols on the doors light up in blue when the KI is allowed to open the door, and in green when it isn't. These lights were manufactured by the D'ni and not written into an age, so it is extremely unlikely that they would choose colors that are hard for them to tell apart.

There's also the set of color symbols used by Gehn on Riven (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet), which implies that the D'ni color vision is similar to the human one. Of course Gehn was half D'ni, half human, so that may not be entirely accurate.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:33 pm 
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I doubt color-blind people have problems enjoying gardens ;) .
It’s not necessarily a matter of color-blindness either: many languages don’t have the distinction, but people have normal vision.

That said, the D’ni could be blind to red hues (there’s an interesting color-blind simulator here). It would sort of make sense for those who didn’t have access to Ages, because of the overload of red-orange light in the Cavern (at least as much sense as being sensitive to sunlight).

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Okay, this is wandering very far afield. Please move it to a new topic -- I created this one in case anyone wants to offer suggestions or commentary on my pictures.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:53 pm 
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The discussion is about your pictures, Larry, at least insofar as their ostensible purpose is to intensifying interest and knowledge of the D'n language.

In my last message for instance, I gave three hints as to what might be meaningful pictorial representations of the D'ni word roodsh and one for the word trel. The only way to discuss these further is for people to talk about the concepts involved and become familiar with their potential semantics. Dglessus's message also contains similar sorts of hints.

We could talk about the semiotics of the particular pictures you have chosen for different words, but since they seem largely unconnected with the D'ni culture, there is not a lot to say about them IMHO. ...unless you choose to take that as a constructive criticism :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:19 pm 
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Sorry about that; I missed those comments. I was just reading the last couple of posts.

The reason I don't use game images (other than D'ni font) in the illustrations is because I post them here. It's a deliberate choice made to avoid possible copyright or forum rule violations relating to the use of Cyan material.

That being the case, I withdraw my request.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:57 pm 
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Most of the words you attempt to illuminate are not represented in any of Cyan's art. I was thinking more that you could convey them without recourse to specifically surface-culture symbols. For example the concept of kino (assuming we are correct in what it means) would I think be understandable to a D'ni speaker (if they looked closely) from the following well-known OOC image:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


Just a thought :)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:56 pm 
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When I'm creating one of the illustrations, I have several things on my mind. Does the illustration immediately evoke the word I'm working with? Is word I'm defining clear from context? Would it be understood regardless of the viewer's culture? Could it be interpreted as offensive or bigoted in some way? Can it fit into a 500 x 500 pixel circle and still be distinct and unambiguous?

The painting you showed me is beautiful, but the subject requires knowledge of Roman and Gaelic history. How many people are likely to see it and immediately exclaim, "Oh, that's Vercingetorix laying down his weapons at the feet of Julius after the battle of Alesia"? I'm pretty comfortable saying that the answer is probably "not many". As you said, it can be deciphered if they look closely since there are bound Gauls in the scene, but you do have to study it. Plus, that's not going into a 500 pixel circle well.

The simple white flag I chose gets the point across in a single glance. Thanks to movies and TV shows, pretty much anyone who has contact with the outside world is going to know what it means.

While most of the words I illustrated in the first round were easy enough, the second round is requiring a lot more thought and effort.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:52 pm 
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I always read the purpose as to make the meaning readily apparent primarily to Americans, who make up the bulk of the English-speaking internet, and to those well-exposed to American culture. What the D'ni would think about it isn't really important.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:01 am 
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Larry: You are completely missing my point, I think. The picture shows a man who has clearly just thrown down a shield and sword in front of another man (look at the gesture and expressions) -- any culture with weapons and any history of fighting will understand this image, even if the people in it seem like "aliens" . You are confusing what you happen to know about the picture with what is necessary to understand the basic meaning of what is going on in it. A white flag, on the other hand, could symbolize practically anything unless you happen to belong to one of the surface countries under European influence in this particular Age; and to most people your image, while very beautiful and vivid, would seem like an illustration for "white" or "flag" or possibly "breeze" ...

As far as the technical side of it, to fit your schematic I would crop out all but the figure of surrendering warrior, his weaponry on the ground and the conqueror looking smugly down on him -- but you are the artist :)

Kath: That is not how it struck me. I found some of Larry's earlier efforts to be quite powerful because they invited the viewer to look at the D'ni writing and think about what it said in the light of the picture as a inter-cultural form. Many (though I admit not all) of the later ones seem like something from Facebook ("look at the cute picture of Snoopy that I found on the Internet today"), and seem to invite the viewer to chuckle or smile and then move on to look at the next picture, hardly noticing the D'ni letters consigned to the border, unless he or she happens to wonder, "why am I being shown a picture of an English word I already know?" ...

To me the artistic concept behind these pictures only makes sense when I am invited to imagine the linguistic concepts from the D'ni point of view. As an American, I already know what waving a white flag means; but if I want to learn what kino means, surely you would agree it is not 'wave a white flag'.

Just my opinion, as requested -- if admittedly a few days ago :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:43 pm 
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I'm very curious how a picture of skydivers links to "forget".

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:53 pm 
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KathAveara wrote:
I'm very curious how a picture of skydivers links to "forget".

The female on the right seems to have forgotten not just her chute, but her clothes as well. :wink:

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