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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:48 pm 
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Just as an aside, even the DRC could go on "Yeesha's Journey." In fact, they have each said they have recently in Town Hall Meetings in the Cavern. But what does it change? How are they different?


Well, yes, that is the question. The thing is, the DRC (aside from Watson, who is still missing) took their journey between the end of Path of the Shell and the present moment. There simply has not been any in-game opportunity to demonstrate this, since the only game since then was Myst V, which does not focus on the DRC for obvious reasons. I would be shocked if this issue does not come up in Uru Live... but how would Cyan have communicated this to us already? We're getting hints in the Town Hall Meetings. Oh yes, we're getting hints. But I think it's a mistake to equate a plot point that isn't fully resolved in an ongoing story with something that will never be resolved. It's the Harry/Voldemort thing again. We just haven't seen enough of the DRC yet to know, and we almost certainly won't till Live.

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As a player of the game, an enlightened character isn't able to do anything more in the game because of it.


In Uru, there are two characters I consider enlightened or close to enlightened. There are others working their way there (including us,) but I'd say the two who have made it are Yeesha and Phil. Of those two, one has developed god-like powers and become The Grower who will restore D'ni, and the other may have died from having a wall collapse on him (or didn't die, which I think is an infinitely more interesting possibility) as a direct result of knowledge he received on his journey.

The player has not reached the point where either of these things could happen, and we only need one Grower anyway. But it hints at the future, and what the journey might mean. The benefits, of course. But also the costs. The journey might end your life, or at the very least take you away from all you know, from friends and family and home. It could change you, as it changed Phil. Is it worth it?

Now, to head off an argument I know will come up, I know Cyan doesn't have the ability to really kill us or make us crazy. But Gehn didn't really have the power to kill us either. Atrus was just a character on the computer screen, and we couldn't really help or harm him. If you restarted the game, the characters would behave exactly the same way they did before. The real world remains unaffected. At some point you've just got to suspend disbelief and live in Cyan's world, where these things are possible.

As I see it, what the story has done so far is show us some of the possibilities. I suspect, and RAWA seems to suggest, that the next step will be: So what are you going to do about it?

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:04 pm 
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Joey Zoonishii wrote:
Yeesha... the journeys... Yeesha believes that the restoration of D'ni isn't a physical restoration, and that it is a restoration of the mind. That's how you transform the restoration... Teaching. Yeesha's journeys teach. That is why you do them. To come to an greater understanding of D'ni. To learn about the greatness of D'ni being built on the backs of the Bah'ro...

It's an incredible beginning for a story. If you have better ideas, then let's hear them.

~Joey What-the-heck-shii


Hey this is a good point Joey, I like that and hadn't really thought of it that way. I think the ages you journey through in either single player mode or the current Uru (Until or old Live) were probably just intended to be a short lead-in, a tutorial of sorts, which is why Yeesha is 'teaching' you each step of the way, each age you complete, she speaks to you and lets you know a little more of her discoveries so you can make your own interpretations of them.

I don't think it was "Philisophical blabbering" at all... I think it was Yeesha laying out her discoveries and leaving it up to you to decide if you believe what happened. You also have the DRC's studies (which like the writeup about the "wall game" in the Gahreesen fortress may or may not be spot on factual or correct) to weigh into consideration. Who do you believe? Maybe nobody is right and the truth of D'ni's destruction was a meteorite like the dinosaurs or something? (exaggeratedly absurd for emphasis)

Please, lets not call anyone wrong or right, nor should we harshly judge Uru's storyline based on what was written and then unfortunately cut off years ago.

Making a generalized post saying "Make a REAL storyline this time!" but giving no real suggestion, isn't a suggestion at all, it's a critical opinion that without substance, isn't of much value other than for pure argument fodder. This thread has unfortunately gotten too long for the short and semi-insulting opinion that was originally given as the topic. It's ok to not like something, but you can do so creatively with real suggestions and get a much better response from your peers.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:24 pm 
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Once upon a time. . .

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:39 pm 
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Envie wrote:
Making a generalized post saying "Make a REAL storyline this time!" but giving no real suggestion, isn't a suggestion at all, it's a critical opinion that without substance, isn't of much value other than for pure argument fodder. This thread has unfortunately gotten too long for the short and semi-insulting opinion that was originally given as the topic.


Amen.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 2:16 am 
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It's an incredible beginning for a story. If you have better ideas, then let's hear them.


So are you basically saying the $60 I paid for Uru: Ages Beyond Myst and Uru: Path of the Shell were just for the "first five minutes" of the story?


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 2:28 am 
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Well, you bought Uru: Ages Beyond Myst as the beginning of the Uru Live story, yes.

If you didn't like it, why you bought an expansion pack is beyond my powers to explain. ;)

But both were the first steps on a journey that will continue in Live. :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 4:03 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Joey Zoonishii wrote:
you can't claim that you fully understand the story in Uru if you don't understand why you should go on Yeesha's journeys...


Good job! That is certainly part of Uru's premise. But everyone says that, and they don't actually say why in real terms. It is a vague statement because they use the words "Yeesha's Journey" or "Yeesha's Path" as if they define themselves. They require a definition in observable terms before they can be understood. I understand going on her "Path" makes me solve puzzles, find journey cloths, and teaches me about the backstory. I'd like to be taught here about the physical effects to the game using details from the narrative. Because without external change, Shields thinks it's pointless.


JWPlatt, first, I've gotta say that your positive attitude in a web forum, in a discussion like this, is very refreshing. :D

All I can really say to you here though is, that there really are no physical effects. At the end of Ages Beyond Myst, Yeesha distinctively talks about "sides being taken", and that it will not always be easy taking her side. The effect is internal, and left up to you, as to whether or not you agree with what she says.

Well, I spoke a little too soon, ...but maybe there's one distinct physical effect you can see... by taking the journeys, you've helped to release a Bah'ro... ...right? Could this potentially effect the restoration?

Why take Yeesha's journeys? YOU are a character in the story... it's up to you whether or not you're curious about any of it. You could, essentially, not take the journeys... and just be there. Maybe you think this is silly, but, Rand Miller has said in interviews that Cyan has always wanted to make "worlds and not games". Take what you will from that. I think that's gotta be fundamental to the experience of Uru.

Yeesha's role in the story is a subversive one against what the DRC are doing with the restoration. (...take a look at the Journey cloth on the Tokotah rooftop and read the note attached to it..., the DRC are definitely confused by it...) Yeesha sees that if the DRC continues their work without understanding what she's telling us about the "Pride of D'ni" and the abuse of the Bah'ro, then they will only repeat this cycle of moral decay.

JWPlatt wrote:
Joey Zoonishii wrote:
Yeesha... the journeys... Yeesha believes that the restoration of D'ni isn't a physical restoration, and that it is a restoration of the mind.

Right! But how, exactly, is the mind restored?


It doesn't necessarily have to be restored. I'm not sure how else to say it. I think my above chatter might clear up a lot of the questions you were asking past this point, (maybe, maybe not...). :?:

Shields wrote:
So are you basically saying the $60 I paid for Uru: Ages Beyond Myst and Uru: Path of the Shell were just for the "first five minutes" of the story?


Absolutely.

Anna Catherine is right again here. You really can't look at Uru without seeing what's been going on with Uru Live (and why this forum even exists right now..)

On top of that, many people have made similar complaints about the original Myst... people say that it had "no story" and "no ending"... (...yet, tons of people still loved it for some reason, didn't they?) Then... ...along came some novels and then Riven. Uru doesn't exactly follow this situation, though, there are parallels here.

I dunno, I think I've said my piece here, and I think I've said all I can say and I've typed all I can type... ...and I can'ts types no more. I think I'm gonna jus' gonna stop my contributions to this thread here... It's been suh-well, though.


~Joey Voongeeshii


Last edited by Joey Zoonishii on Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:25 pm 
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I was reading at the beginning of this thread, but lost track of it, so I read the last page. Seems the debate is still on as to whether the events and asides in the two Uru standallone discs can be regarded as a proper adventure game story or, as has also come to my attention, whether that story should even be considered canon, as it was (clearly) some sort of money grubbing concession to the EVIL Suits at Ubisoft.

Well, to both I say, get some perspective.

URU Live is and always was intended to be first and foremost an MMORPG. So of course, the story behind it, though broad and far reaching, had to be very open and loose, or there would have been no room for players to get immersed themselves. It's like the idea of playing a Star Wars RPG where all anyone wants to do is play the stars of the original movies, or just follow Luke, Han and Leia around and help them from the wings. Useless. You need lots of open spaces in RPG plots for interactivity that actually has consequences on the outcome of the plotline, at least in the details and timing, if not the ultimate outcome.

So of course, you could only have so much plot exposition in those two discs. The standalone was merely an introduction into what was intended to be a larger, ongoing story.

Now, as to the other side of the coin, the Concession. The Compromise. The Sellout to Ubisoft. The Standalones.

Let me tell you something about what I see in MMOs that I don't like: spending $40 to $80 dollars for a game that has no content whatsoever... and THEN having to pay for a subscription on top of that so I can get in the game. No. You can hold back lots of the content that really requires that you be online, sure, but if you give me nothing but dlls, a 3D engine that will only be updated when I get online anyway, and an access key that proves I bought the disc, only to expect me to pony up more money so I can have the actual content, you do NOT get to charge me $50 dollars. I don't care how sexy your game is, or how good the gameplay. You make me pay more than $20 for the startup disc and I had better have something useful on that piece of plastic. Otherwise, you're just being greedy. You did the development, and you need to get paid, so give me value for dollar or go die somewhere with the other failed and abandoned MMO's.

Fortunately, Uru (with 2Dni and PotS) is not like that, and has a whopping eight gorgeous ages for me to explore, as well as a whole subterranean world. And you don't have to go online to explore them. Say what you will about the original intent of that content, being allowed to explore those locations and experience all of it in 3D with my cool avatar we EVERYTHING I'd been looking for in an Adventure game AND an MMO. It got me hooked. Very little has stood up to it for me, and that's WITH the irritating puzzle-type problem solving, which I could live without, personally.

Rand gave me worlds to explore, and he didn't try to gouge me for it. Rand can expect more from me in the future.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:26 pm 
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Actually, that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about whether or not Uru, as it is right now, has a good plot.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:50 pm 
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Lee in Limbo wrote:
I was reading at the beginning of this thread, but lost track of it, so I read the last page.

I have noticed that you, to politely understate things, generally do not believe in brief posts. ;) Well, I do my share, too, so you should go back and read everything, especially my "thoughful" posts. Call it a demand for poetic justice.

Lee in Limbo wrote:
URU Live is and always was intended to be first and foremost an MMORPG. So of course, the story behind it, though broad and far reaching, had to be very open and loose, or there would have been no room for players to get immersed themselves.

You know what - I understand this. Always have. The more down-to-earth details are included up front, the more confined Cyan becomes in how it can tell the story. That's why it is so vague initially - to leave room. What gets me is how many people speak the phrases "Yeesha's Path" or "Restoration of the mind" as if they actually understand what it means when the story hasn't yet been written. Much like cultists will parrot the words of their leader as if they understand something which has not yet been defined saying, "Yeah, grok with me, man." It's built on positive faith, but it's a pretense. We ask the DRC if they have taken "Yeesha's Path" as if the meaning and consequences have been defined.

And there's all this manufactured division based upon say-so. Division without cause or valid justification is prejudiced and pointless. It seems in this discussion the defenders of the story admit the details aren't there yet and we have to wait for them. I like the game and the story so far and I'm happy to play and wait. My efforts to make people think about what has actually been told so far has been, in part, an effort to expose the pretense of knowing something that doesn't yet exist. To steal a bad analogy and demonstrate how any analogy can be twisted to suit either party, it's as if they can watch the first 5 minutes of a movie, having not seen or heard about it before, and claim to know the moral lesson about what happens beyond the credits.

Lee in Limbo wrote:
You need lots of open spaces in RPG plots for interactivity that actually has consequences on the outcome of the plotline, at least in the details and timing, if not the ultimate outcome.

Yep. Details and consequences to gameplay and therefore plotline are what I've repeatedly pointed out is missing. And, yes, again, I understand we only have seen the beginning; that Cyan was cut short and now they intend to do it right. We all have the fantastic fortune to have a second chance to seek the truth. But the phrases of the cult are still spoken as if the speakers understand the meaning, implying so should the skeptics.

Lee in Limbo wrote:
Rand gave me worlds to explore, and he didn't try to gouge me for it. Rand can expect more from me in the future.

Awesome. Any remarks I make in these debates should not be construed as diminishing any of my admiration and respect for Cyan Worlds, their increible talent, and their unswerving benevolence toward their fans. They really are the good guys.

Watching the Cyan pizza party video for the fans, I saw the real faces behind the company. As I watched, I started to feel guilty about questioning anything Cyan does, because these people are all just human like the rest of us with feelings, families, doubts, mortgages, and pride and purpose in their work. And I thought maybe I should tone down the attitude in my posts.

Nah. Authority should always be questioned.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:16 pm 
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This thread has unfortunately gotten too long for the short and semi-insulting opinion that was originally given as the topic. It's ok to not like something, but you can do so creatively with real suggestions and get a much better response from your peers.

I wonder if the length of the thread actually shows the opposite of what you're saying...and that is... "good" responses. I actually think they're all pretty good! - Even if the start was short & blunt - it has obviously provided enough of a spark to bring others together for a healthy debate/discussion on this issue of plot. Perhaps in your willingness to suggest not mentioning right & wrong maybe you could consider applying this to another aspect of your own thinking and that would be towards saying what is "good" or "bad" and or "creative" or "not creative" - "real" or "unreal" so on and so forth...

I think the length of the thread shows that there is definitely an issue here with regards to URU's plot being weak. I can't go into extreme depth at the moment unfortunatley but maybe to branch out the discssion a bit...I think the weakness in plot is not only tied into the weakness of the URU game engine itself but moreover I think this weakness "infected" or carried over to MYST V. With all the excuses/reasons given as to why URU flopped (because it most certainly did flop) if they were valid reasons - then I believe MYST V should have been the best place to see the necessary improvements. Instead we get ridiculous Bahro & a more than predictable storyline and frankly it's all thanks to URU & its game engine. I think MYST V should & could be used as a fair litmus test as to the strength of URU's plot.

Have to go at the moment - This is a great thread!

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:29 pm 
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neosource wrote:
I think MYST V should & could be used as a fair litmus test as to the strength of URU's plot.

Actually, it's not. Cyan has stated that Myst V: EoA was done under extraordinary budgetary and time pressures. They have said it would have been done differently under more favorable circumstances. The Bahro is actually one specific example RAWA himself said he would have preferred to change, but given the constraints of time, money, and a self-contained game, they had no choice.

"Duck-nee" was another thing he, uh, questioned... ;)


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 1:54 am 
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Maybe it's time too look at the plot and how things are laid out. Lets start at the beginning in the Desert where we first came to D'ni. I had a few questions about that anyway.
To start with, we are drawn there for whatever reason. I can except that but the journey clothes? Seven to collect before we can enter. Now the DRC is already in the caverns.... am I right on this? How did they get down there if not thru Yeesha's journey. They must have come down thru the caverns, which we do not have access to. Did the DRC close them off to the rest of the world and Yeesha is just letting us in through the back door?
Once we get down to D'ni the DRC seemed to accept us. So do they know that the only way we are getting in is by taking Yeeshas journey? Or do they think we initially came down the cavern the same way they did. If so then they didn't close off the enterance. Maybe they came down from the Cleft in the same manor we did but just decided not to go on with the rest of the journey, at least not at first.
And what is the need for the first seven journey's in the dessert. Are we being tested to see if Yeesha even finds us worthy to enter?
Lets get some answers and ideas on the beginning of our journey and then move on to the next. Lets explore this plot.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 2:41 am 
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Agreed. We're all in. Let's look forward.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 5:08 am 
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I'm definitely all for the exploration but first a quick response to JW's frequently used excuse:

Actually, it's not. Cyan has stated that Myst V: EoA was done under extraordinary budgetary and time pressures. They have said it would have been done differently under more favorable circumstances.

Actually it is. I've heard this song & dance quite a few times now & know it well...it's a no brainer... give anybody "more favorable" conditions and they'll do better. You can say that for anything....but this is not necessarily true either. The point is MYST V was weak because URU was weak first. It attempted to build upon URU's foundation which as anyone knows... a poor foundation will effect the whole structure. Essentially because URU failed - CYAN became bankrupt - so it is obvious that URU is the real culprit here and always has been....which can also be seen in the lack of enthusiasm in MYST V's plot.

Regardless of what you think - there were plenty of "interviews" and discussions on why MYST V was going to be the "Grand Finale" of the incredible MYST saga & why it would build upon URU in many ways and why it would also be so much better than URU & offer a chance to prove itself.

Frankly...yes MYST V is better than URU..significantly... at least on a graphical level for me. However...plot wise... it is no better if not worse than URU. A major excuse I hear for URU failing was because it was originally meant to be a multiplayer game... heard that before? So now we get MYST V which wasn't supposed to be a multiplayer game from the start & the major excuse shifts to "better conditions" were necessary. This might be true...but when you start hearing this applied to every aspect then you know it's thin. Meaning...if your criticism was with the bugs... the excuse is "better conditions" were necessary. If the criticism was with the graphics or choppiness or interface issues between mouse & keyboard...it was "better conditions" were necessary. If your criticism was with the plot the excuse is again "better conditions" were necessary.

Frankly, MYST V even with the "limited conditions" (which btw CYAN was so tremendously limited that they were able to create/invent a brand new instrument for getting more realistic faces on animated characters...know what that cost?) - should have been able to develop the plot/story far more than the effort that was put into it. I think because URU didn't provide much to build upon in the first place including the engine itself - it shows how shackling URU was/is/can be and MYST V is a great place to see the supposed improvements that we were to get from URU...based on URU.

Onwards...

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