Kadish - A question for the linguists

TheGreenKnight · **Posted:** Tue May 23, 2006 5:55 am

As the subject line suggests, I have a question about Kadish, and it's directed at any of those among you with some knowledge of the D'ni language.

Specifically, what is the correct pronunciation of his name?

Along with picking up tiny bits and pieces of D'ni over the past few years, I've made some minor forays into the study of various surface languages - and in the process I've become something of a stickler for the proper pronunciation of foreign words and names.

Since Cyan & the DRC have been (in my opinion) quite clear on proper D'ni pronunciation what with their phonetic transliterations and helpful clarifications over the years, I'm surprised at how frequently such words as "Att-truss", "D'Nai", "Kai" and "Garrison" pop up in conversation with other Myst fans.

The most common pronunciation of "Kadish" seems to be "KAY-dish", which sounds highly suspect to my ears.

So really, I suppose the question I had ought to be asking is this:

How is Kadish spelled in D'ni? [Kh][ah][d][ee][sh], or [Kh][ay][d][i][sh]?

Thanks in advance for your time,

-Alex

Tahm · **Posted:** Tue May 23, 2006 8:30 am

I too prefer the Kah-DEESH pronunciation. Unfortunately, from his signed note in Kadish Tolesa, it's clear that the characters spell (k)(ai)(d)(i)(sh). So, ah well, eh?

Andrew
(smiling at the C.S.L. quote)

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

Yeesha pronounces it KAY-dish. Since she is a tiny part D'ni, I'd imagine that would be the correct (or closest to correct) pronounciation.

I don't tend to worry how I say it. I say it either KAH-dish or KAY-dish. Never heard about kah-DEESH, though.

Owehn · **Posted:** Tue May 23, 2006 1:28 pm

Kadish signs his name on the note in his vault [K][ay][d][ih][sh]. Since Yeesha puts the emphasis on KAY-dish, we have no reason to suspect any other pronunciation.

TheGreenKnight · **Posted:** Wed May 24, 2006 3:34 am

Thanks very much for the replies, everyone!

I really should have thought to look at Kadish's note. I had forgotten about both it and the fact that Yeesha said his name aloud. Ah, well.

-Alex

Nyrphame · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 3:13 am **Posts:** 724

I pronounce it to rhyme with Radish. I don't care how Yeesha pronounces it-after all she says duhNI while Atrus says DUNny. Pronunciation likely varied as it does with dialects of any language all over the world. Escher pronounces D'ni DuckKnee and, at one point, I swear, FishKnee.

So maybe KAYdish is High Dni, Kah-Deesh is Eastern Dni and Kahdish is Canadian Dni

Eh?

nerf

Tahm · **Posted:** Fri May 26, 2006 9:17 am

*murders Canadian D'ni*

There. I knew we didn't want to have to deal with that.

Seriously, though, the correct pronunciation is Kaydish, not because Yeesha says it thus (yes, voice actors get things mixed up a lot), but because it's signed thus on the note in the vault.

I'd kind of like (alright, abjectly fall in love with) a fully phoneticized, adhered-to form of D'ni in English (Roman) letters.

Andrew

Shranexis0 · **Joined:** Sun May 21, 2006 5:20 am **Posts:** 76

It's really strange when you realize that the D'ni language is almost ten thousand years old! Of course there's dialect. Especially when you consider Greek, Arabic, and Chinese, the 3 oldest language groups in the world are barely 4,000, and look at how much those have changed!

Deius · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 4:39 am

Another thing to keep in mind is the other written instance of Kadish's name in the city. Around the perimeter of the Gallery near the ceiling, the text retimelokh Kadish is repeated, which translates to "The Gallery of Kadish."

Again, as in Kadish's note, it is spelled [k][ay][d][i][sh]. So the two written instances along with Yeesha's pronunciation consistently point to KAY-dish as the correct pronunciation.

Nyrphame · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 3:13 am **Posts:** 724

Indeed. And it doesn't take 4000 years for those changes to show up either. Just look at American English - in the Chicago area for example, the pronunciation of block has changed to black and the pronunciation of bus has shifted to approxiamately boss in something like 60 years or so.

The desire for a strictly-adhered-to pronunciation key is entirely understandable, but no real language is so rigidly unchanging. Of course, if you can time-stamp such a thing, it would represent a valuable touchstone in understanding how a language evolved to and from that point.

TheGreenKnight · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 6:30 am

Tahm wrote:

I'd kind of like (alright, abjectly fall in love with) a fully phoneticized, adhered-to form of D'ni in English (Roman) letters.

Amen, brother. Amen.

The Japanese did it - Why not the DRC?

-Alex

Nyrphame · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 3:13 am **Posts:** 724

And the French, don't forget the French!

Tahm · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 10:31 am

The French!

*smacks the French*

French is one of the least phonetic languages I know. Which is one of the reasons it irks me so.

Andrew
(who's made his own language - and yes, it's phonetic!)

Tahm · **Posted:** Sat May 27, 2006 10:41 am

Oh, and as to dialect, hmm. I can see dialect developing if settlers from D'ni inhabited ages, away from the cavern and other speakers. But they weren't known to do this - workers and slave-keepers (who, sadly, existed, we learn in Teledahn) who had business in other ages may have created hybrid languages from the influence of any local ones. It's possible even that the districts in D'ni which were separated by financial situation could have had slightly different forms of speech - but they wouldn't have been that far apart. It's always eminently possible that the whole kit and kaboodle, so to speak, had changed a lot from the D'ni spoken by Ri'neref - except for the fact that, in the Book of D'ni, when Atrus and the D'ni went to Terahnee, they found people there, a long sundered society, spoke almost exactly the same.

I'm going to say that our human languages are a poor example of the kind of evolution D'ni went through, simply because we're different - we live for a much shorter amount of time, traditions are less adhered to, and we are less careful for that reason. In fact, given the care with which the D'ni approached every aspect of life, I think it's safe to say that they kept their language from devolving, and their orthography quite phonetic.

Andrew

Nyrphame · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 3:13 am **Posts:** 724

Quote:

French is one of the least phonetic languages I know. Which is one of the reasons it irks me so.

Perhaps, but also one of the most rigidly controlled - or at least one with a strong history of attempted standardization and control.

Par example -> KFC is KFC everywhere in the world except.....?

Quote:

I'm going to say that our human languages are a poor example of the kind of evolution D'ni went through, simply because we're different - we live for a much shorter amount of time, traditions are less adhered to, and we are less careful for that reason. In fact, given the care with which the D'ni approached every aspect of life, I think it's safe to say that they kept their language from devolving, and their orthography quite phonetic.

Hmmmm - I think you just want your languages tidy - the only languages that fall into that category are dead languages. All living languages evolve and change over time - I don't know what you mean by "devolving" - as does what is acceptable or unacceptable in pronunciation, punctuation, orthography, semantics, pragmatics, discourse, etc.

Of course, D'ni IS a dead language, so you may have your way with it - there is a project for you - create a directly correlative D'ni-->English phonetic key with a time-stamp from the moment of its demise.

However, if we all take it up and begin to communicate in it again - make it live and breath again -- it will begin to change from that moment on.

Good nite and GL. FWIW. Lol. LMAO. BBQ. IMHO.

:g

nerf.

Kadish - A question for the linguists

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