Make a real story this time.

Alahmnat · **Posted:** Sun May 28, 2006 8:26 am

Sudre wrote:

Maybe it's time too look at the plot and how things are laid out. Lets start at the beginning in the Desert where we first came to D'ni. I had a few questions about that anyway.
To start with, we are drawn there for whatever reason. I can except that but the journey clothes? Seven to collect before we can enter. Now the DRC is already in the caverns.... am I right on this? How did they get down there if not thru Yeesha's journey. They must have come down thru the caverns, which we do not have access to. Did the DRC close them off to the rest of the world and Yeesha is just letting us in through the back door?

It is my understanding that yes, the DRC have access to the Cavern through a separate entrance located elsewhere (perhaps the same entrance Ti'ana originally used to gain access to the tunnels?). Our ability to get into D'ni is being provided by Yeesha, whose home away from home (the Cleft) happens to rest on the property of one Jeff Zandi. I wouldn't be surprised if the two have conversed on this subject and if Zandi hasn't gone on a similar journey himself, but as is often the case with this plot... it's a question that hasn't been addressed yet.

Quote:

Once we get down to D'ni the DRC seemed to accept us. So do they know that the only way we are getting in is by taking Yeeshas journey? Or do they think we initially came down the cavern the same way they did. If so then they didn't close off the enterance. Maybe they came down from the Cleft in the same manor we did but just decided not to go on with the rest of the journey, at least not at first.

Well, there is an access point to the Great Shaft in the caldera of the volcano, based on what we see in End of Ages, but it's far too small and in far too precarious of a position to make transportation of large amounts of equipment through that access terribly plausible.

I will say, though, that the DRC have not always been anywhere near as accommodating towards explorers who gained access to D'ni through Yeesha's intervention. Whether reflective of an OOC opinion that the game was being launched ahead of schedule or not, the DRC were very displeased with the sudden influx of new explorers "ahead of schedule" in January of 2003. Of course, there was little they could do to block us from getting into D'ni to begin with, so they begrudgingly allowed us to poke around in areas they considered safe enough for us to be in. While the attitude changed slightly during Prologue, they (especially Watson and Kodama) have always been somewhat standoffish towards explorers with Relto Books. That attitude seems to have changed considerably in the 2 years since Live shut down, but for a long time, they all wanted nothing to do with Yeesha or her journey, and Watson especially was rather paranoid about using a Relto Book.

To summarize, the DRC knew we had come down through a means other than their entrance to the tunnels, and while they knew about it, they absolutely did not condone it, and really wanted nothing to do with it. I'm just curious what got them all to change their minds.

Quote:

And what is the need for the first seven journey's in the dessert. Are we being tested to see if Yeesha even finds us worthy to enter?
Lets get some answers and ideas on the beginning of our journey and then move on to the next. Lets explore this plot.

From an OOC perspective, I think it's a consistency thing, partly... IC-ly, yeah, I would imagine it was part of Yeesha's initial test.

neosource wrote:

Frankly, MYST V even with the "limited conditions" (which btw CYAN was so tremendously limited that they were able to create/invent a brand new instrument for getting more realistic faces on animated characters...know what that cost?) - should have been able to develop the plot/story far more than the effort that was put into it. I think because URU didn't provide much to build upon in the first place including the engine itself - it shows how shackling URU was/is/can be and MYST V is a great place to see the supposed improvements that we were to get from URU...based on URU.

If I may...

End of Ages is, if anything else, a continuing example of why Uru's story makes for a bad single-player game. It's an effort to take the large, rather loose plot setup of Uru, throw in the next batch of content and characters, and then ratchet it down to a single-player level. As Uru demonstrated, Uru doesn't work well in a single-player setting. The story is too big and planned to run for too long to properly scale down, and the end result is that you get something that not only feels rushed, but incomplete. Path of the Shell and End of Ages suffer from a similar malady: namely, that months of content and story for Uru was boiled down to something that could be played in a few weeks by one person, and that's not what the story was designed for. To take an example from a totally different genre and medium, Joss Whedon's movie Serenity has a similar problem. As much as I enjoyed it, it was a bit of a rush through what would ultimately have been at least the rest of season one of Firefly, if not season two, had it not been canceled. But, because it was no longer a TV show (the format for which the story had been developed), not only fat, but even some of the meat of the story had to be trimmed to take 12+ hours of ideas, characters, and plot twists and trim it down to a 2-hour movie.

Uru's story, unfortunately both for us and for Cyan, has been chopped up, cut down, prodded, poked, edited, revised, condensed, and even canceled to such an extent that I really don't know how long the stuff we have now would have played out if it had been allowed to run without intervention from the publisher. As a result, it has suffered in the products we've seen it in. However, claiming that a long-form multiplayer story is of poor quality based on what we've seen of its repurposed elements in a short-form single-player environment isn't fair to Cyan or the story. I won't argue that the story as we've seen it has problems with pacing and puzzles, but I will argue that it's not the fault of the story itself, but rather the circumstances of the way it ended up being told.

Also, as an aside, the video face mapping developed for End of Ages uses a small camera attached to a few small metal pipes that were bolted to a bike helmet... I could probably put together something similar for about 250 bucks using an iSight camera, some duct tape, a small PVC pipe, and a bike helmet. I hardly think massive amounts of Cyan's budget went into making that one a reality. I should also point out that making a gadget like that takes a lot less time than coming up with a story and content to tell it with. I'm curious just how much you expected Cyan to be able to come up with in just under a year.

neosource · **Joined:** Fri May 26, 2006 10:29 pm **Posts:** 46

OK Alahmnat...most of your post was right on and I agree with it up until the end. 1st with regards to defending or arguing that its not the fault of the story...argue as much as you want but the excuse I hear from you or from others is either not enough time/better conditions or not supposed to be single player. There was plenty of talk why MYST V would be better than URU prior to its release and why URU would be improved upon- or attempting to prove its worth in MYST V and one of the most obvious reasons was stated to be because it would be a single player from the start this time. There were improvements with regards to graphics and efficiency of the engine's speed/loading etc. There were also enormous flaws/bugs but forget bugs for now...just look at the plot. Where did this development of the Bahro come from? Well we see & hear Bahro in no other place except URU....hmmm.....what's most of the plot based on in MYST V...Bahro perhaps? Wherever did that notion come from?

Lastly with regards to the helmet...nice try...but I guess I should have been more clear...so I'll clarify in the form of a question....what was the helmet hooked up to? Thousands of dollars worth of computing technology perhaps?

With regards to your final question...how much did I expect they would be able to come up with in under a year...well...

First of all if URU was so rich in plot as others debate than it wouldn't be so hard to accomplish this in a year....but URU is not rich in plot so therefore - admittedly - it must have been a lot harder. Now saying that... the next thought or question comes to mind... WHEN was URU's plot conceptualized? Seems like it started quite some time ago which I would argue should have given them enough time to iron out basic kinks, continue brainstorming and ultimately give us a better story than the one we got in MYST V. But neo...the plot is still being conceptualized as we speak.... exactly! Now the original MYST ...there's some super fertile high quality ground! Look what we got because of that! RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION...for all intensive purposes 3 more solid games! What did URU give us...dried out soil....a cancelled intention, a weak game in itself & MYST V...oh and what the heck...let's throw in URU Live. You can draw your own conclusions...

So to finally answer the question directly...in under a year I expected a better plot and think it would have been possible...these are the people who gave us MYST...this was a grand finale...it turned into a children's game. They could have done better...but hey live & learn....you can't win em' all although they came pretty darn close to doing so!!

Lastly with regards to plot & MYST V.... look I'll take the bugs, I'll take some choppiness... those aren't my major hang-ups (namely because I didn't experience those

heh heh) - When I first loaded up MYST V and heard Rand's voiceover I was thrilled and thought it was staged well...to my surprise I started to look forward to the game...thinking maybe this'll be pretty cool afterall! The world's were cool but that's never been enough or what soley makes MYST - MYST...coming from the people of CYAN story/plot has always been present & solid. Unfortunately as it turned out its like Rand's opening voiceover was from some other game that was supposed to be MYST V but we never got to play it! & Please don't spend the time breaking down the whole voiceover & trying to tell me how the game represented what was said. I understand the angles. I'll also just post the voiceover because I think it is relevant & tied to the URU plot discussion:

My journey has come to an end. I have lost my home, my Books, my sons. I've lost my father, my grandmother ... my dear wife, Catherine. And now I fear my only daughter is gone as well. And for what? For the slimmest hope that things could be put right?

What began as my tedious life in the cleft, holding out hope for more has returned to the same. I have gone to great lengths to watch the end be written, and now ... now I find myself alone in a sandstorm in Tomahna, waiting for a single grain of sand to fall. D'ni's future is like an hourglass. As the final grain slips through, I wait and I tremble, losing hope that the hourglass will be turned over once again. The Age may simply end -- expended and lifeless.

I have passed my cursed burden on to my cherished daughter, Yeesha. She has either understood and embraced it, or the weight of it has crushed her. I fear it has been far too long. My hope has waned. If Yeesha has failed, is anyone left who can understand?

Oh, I am old and so tired. Once again I am useless. Today I will put an end to my useless waiting and go on to a better place.

Atrus

Lee in Limbo · **Posted:** Mon May 29, 2006 6:45 am

Hmmn. How to respond to this one. Oh wait, I've got it:

Talk is cheap, neosource.

Here's the thing: Ages take time. You know this. Explaining it to you is pointless. You're just ignoring that fact to be contentious.

Creating new content, or even retrofitting unused content, in order to pay the bills and tie things up as neatly as possible is not nearly as easy as you'd like us to believe. The technology may have vastly improved from the days when a classic point and click adventure took a couple of years to hammer out, but the games were pretty limited, and the demands on modern games are much higher as well.

So really, the development time hasn't been diminished by any stretch of the imagination. It takes months to develop single ages without repeating yourself or your imitators. To develop whole games with enough content to please everyone, years. And the content CYAN had been developing when URU Live got canned? That went out as To D'ni and PotS. So what they went back to work with was drawing table stuff that had to be repurposed to tell not just any tale but the final tale. Gestalt years of work and plans for the future into a handful of days of gameplay at best.

And I don't know about you, but I always turn out my best work under the gun when I've just been gut-punched and told I'm unemployed the minute I get finished. Yeah, right.

You didn't like Uru. That's clear. Point taken. We did. Still do. that's why we're here. We believe it has a future. We believe Uru Live IS the future of MMO Adventure gaming. And we believe strongly enough to take constructive criticism. But you're offering nothing but derision and arrogance. You clearly don't respect our viewpoint. I respect your right to dislike URU and to dislike EoA. However, I think I can clearly see that you're just gonna keep banging away at this like that horrible monkey with the cymbals, because you have nothing better to offer. Please, feel free to correct me if I've got you all wrong. I'm sure you will.

Just thought I'd get things back on track by reminding you that we wouldn't be here if we didn't like what we'd already seen. So treating us like idiots is not likely to garner you whatever respect and admiration for your views you must surely be hoping for in some part of your head, or you wouldn't be trying to impress us with your superior wit and taste.

We see potential where you do not. Which one of us it being closed-minded?
____________________

Maratanos: You know, the funny thing is, I'm pretty sure that's what I was talking about too.

What I figure is, you wanted something more like the standalone plots. What I suggested was, that won't work. You keep insisting that Uru need smore of what you consider to be good plot.

Let's see:
History of the D'ni society being revealed, check.
The efforts of the DRC to carefully discover and document this safely, check.
The daughter of Atrus, the last writer of D'ni, trying to find redemption for the D'ni, check.
The revelation that the D'ni culture was in fact not all sweetness and light, and that their power was built on the backs of species of creatures they used as slave labour, check.
Whole ages discovered that held dark secrets of D'ni decadence and paranoia, check.
Members of the DRC going rogue, check.
Members of Yeesha's followers endangering themselves and vanishing, check.
All of this, plus several worlds to travel to, mysteries behind the wealth and power of the D'ni, and unravelling the mystery of what actually happened to them in the end, check, check and check.

Oh right, I see exactly what you mean. Moving along.
____________________

JWPlatt: Believe it or not, I actually enjoy reading your posts. I'm a very picky burger myself, who expects a great deal from the new Uru Live that has not been delivered on to date. I just see lots of promise, and I don't doubt that Rand sees and is pushing for things that will make Uru Live... the REAL Uru Live, something everyone can share and be proud of.

I've just done so much griping here and elsewhere about these games lately that I'm reaching the point where all I have left to talk about are the reasons why I think they can still work, and why I think folks are missing the point about what can and should be done with them. Too much argument for things that really aren't an issue, and won't be unless CYAN completely drops the ball with the relaunch, which I highly doubt. They may have taken too long to get Uru Live to market the first time, trying new things and building on premises that hadn't been tried before, gambling on the fans and the technology to converge with what they wanted to achieve. They started too soon, took too long, finished too late, and now have to pretty much do over.

But I think it's going to be fantastic, even if it surprises and disappoints some folks who want this to be more like what they've already come to expect. Anyone who has played MMOs and really thought about what goes on there can see that URU Live has to be quite a bit more interactive and involved, even when new Age content is months away. So things will change, and the stories won't be as direct and obvious, and the content will have to be about more than finding puzzles and Bahro stones and KI markers.

Stories, sure. But it's not like they can invent whole games-worth of shiny new ages and histories to be implemented with patches and tweaks and ephemeral content like new clothing and toys on a weekly or even monthly schedule, unless they tailor-make some of their content expressly for replayable MMO gameplay. Some of that content is going to have to be of the open type that doesn't involve going to ages, either new or to places we've already been, to do nothing more than take energy readings, find details we supposedly missed the last time we scoured an area, or to touch magic rocks and wind up in someplace where we can't do anything but look around and then link out to our Relto and back to D'ni.

Me? I trust the stories will be there. I'm just not seeing what all the fuss is about. People seem to expect whole novels or something, where all they can reasonably hope for at best is about four new chapters a year.

Okay, done babbling. I trust this sandbox has enough grouses already, without me muddying things up further.

Morningstar · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 3:52 pm **Posts:** 295

From my POV, in this thread there is a confusion between two concepts: the "lack of plot" and the "lack of depth".

Lack of Plot: yes, Uru lacks a plot in terms of
- setting up the stage and characters
- seeing events develop, and affecting them
- eventually being led to a final decision where bad and good sides are revealed, and getting to a resolution of the drama.
It could not have been this way, we know that.
Having a linear plot that is concluded at the end of ABM would have made the whole concept of Uru pointless, since it was intended to be a world, a stage for stories, and not a story in itself. This the reason why it was not strictly a "Myst game" - does anyone honestly think that all the difference was in the fact that we're not "The Stranger" but someone else?
This said, Cyan could have done ABM differently - and it could have been only worse. Since there was no way (as far as I see, but I'm no game developer) in which a plot could be concluded in Uru without ruining the very meaning of ABM, we could have had just a plot which gets no resolution at the end of the solo game. And I cannot even imagine all the angry gamers we would get in this case. :shock:

Lack of Depth: well, there's nothing I can add about this now. If you play Uru making it your world, as you are supposed to be, then the whole restoration issue, Yeesha's path, the Fall of D'ni, the slavery of the Bahro are not philosophical blabbering. They're facts with which you are confronted, historical accounts from which you can learn, they lead to a journey which is, yes, moral and philosophical - but which is surely more than "blabbering".
What do you think of Yeesha, of the Bahro, of the D'ni, after taking the Journey? How do you judge what happened? In Uru we don't get black and white - we get shades of gray, and it's up to us what we learn from them. If this lack of depth?

neosource · **Joined:** Fri May 26, 2006 10:29 pm **Posts:** 46

Mr. Lee in Limbo...

Take a Uru plot chill pill or ritalin or something. At no point have I lowered myself to the name calling like a little ruffled feathered child as you are behaving like - oops except just there. Contentious, arrogant, wanting to impress, horrible monkey with the cymbals, close minded....hmmm seems like you simply took a look in the URU mirror at not only URU's faults but your own and then attempted to throw them onto me. Nice try! LOL - I like your "...get things back on track" comment as well...good thing you're around to keep things on track...boy I'll tell ya. I think by name calling & stomping your feet the way you did... the potential for running off track is a lot greater.

I have to thank you though for the superior wit & taste compliment...at least you got something right in your post....so thank you! Although coming from you that really doesn't say all that much.

Lastly...because at the moment I dont have the time, energy or the inclination to explain or defend myself any further...I'll apply my thinking to your comment "talk is cheap." I'll be back later - much to your delight I'm sure - to discuss not only why the plot was weak in URU & MYST V but also to point out why this topic is a good one "Make a real story this time." That comment although blunt & to the point has merit and also - believe it or not - still suggests the possibility of "potential" as you mentioned. I'm not arguing that URU Live does not have potential by the way...I'm simply saying so far... what we were given in URU & MYST V could have been better & more to the topic at hand... the plot(s) thus far show an inherent weakness whether you like or want to admit that or not.

Zander · **Posted:** Tue May 30, 2006 2:57 am

No-one seems to have answered somebody's question way back around page two or so: what are the effects of taking Yeesha's journey? So, loth as I am to add more to this already overblown thread, here goes.

In the course of the game we are presented with two different approaches to life, especially in regard to dealing with other beings. Yeesha shows us, in the Ages of the D'ni that she selects for us to visit, the approach that says that superior knowledge, superior skills, or what might be called superior "breeding" give one the right to use others--"inferiors"--in any way one pleases. We see this approach mirrored in the journal of Douglas Sharper, who spends a lot of his time in Teledahn as an employee of the DRC in luring, trapping and killing a harmless animal, simply because he can and because he enjoys that kind of thing. She intends us to regard this approach to life as flawed and evil, and links it to the attempt to restore D'ni by moving in, taking the Cavern and the secrets of the D'ni for our own, and possibly using them to establish ourselves as "superior" beings, an outcome she sees as inevitable once we have gained the knowledge of the Art.

In contrast, she offers an alternative: an approach to life which is basically egalitarian and humble, seeking to understand rather than to dominate, an approach mirrored in the journals of Phil Henderson and Dr Watson. She would have us "restore" D'ni within ourselves by embodying and living the philosophy of, as far as I can make out, her father, whom she regards as epitomising the "good" aspects of the D'ni people (she doesn't show us any "good" true D'ni in URU, though we learn later that she seems to have met at least one). She hopes that the outcome of sending us on the Journey will be that we reject the former approach and embrace the latter; abandon any attempt to rebuild the city or study the Art and simply adopt a more "Atrian" way of life.

OOC, I think the purpose of the game is to make us think about these two approaches and arrive at our own conclusions. For myself, I feel that they're both too extreme, and that Yeesha's approach carries in it the seeds of destruction just as surely as the other. But the point is that none of this is "random," nor is it "blabbering." If you resent being asked to consider these issues, or don't feel they have any meaning for you, then that's a valid reaction. But these issues are what Myst was about, what Riven was about, what Exile and Revelation and EoA were about. They're central to the entire series. I'd quite like to move on to something else, because for me the point has been well made and more so, but I would hope that whatever came along next would be just as important and thought-provoking, and not just a rollicking good yarn. Which is a fine thing in itself, but there are lots of them around, and too few Mysts and URUs.

neosource · **Joined:** Fri May 26, 2006 10:29 pm **Posts:** 46

TO Zander...

A great little post all except for the end I would say and here's why...

To Zander and anyone else who disagrees with the terminology "philosophical blabbering" - I think it is time to elaborate on this. The way I see what shields was talking about with regards to "philosphical blabbering" is as follows...this example is a quick copy & paste drawn from MYST V (and shields feel free to correct me if I am wrong in interpreting "philosophical blabbering"):

These pages are my journey, my story, my path. They are not meant to cover up, but to reveal. Sometimes in story, sometimes in clear, sometimes in vague, sometimes long, sometimes brief. But the release of these words is a soothing elixir to my burdened soul. The words must flow from me, or I will die.

And in the end, these words are crumbs that spill along my path. And whoever eats these crumbs will know more of me.

Possible "Philosophical Blabbering" Interpretation:

Sometimes I do not like green eggs and ham...sometimes I do not like them Sam I am....sometimes they are green and sometimes they are white...sometimes they are runny, loose & tight. Sometimes I am hungry and sometimes I am not... for the true answer of hunger lies in one's choice and the choice is for those who have chosen to make choices and for those who haven't made choices still can make choices to find out if they are really hungry.

Can hunger be thirst sometimes and thirst hunger?....one must live to feel hungry. I eat and yet I am still hungry...what is this need...this desire...this urge to eat. The answer must be... because I am hungry. Is this all I am...or am I really thirsty?

Possible "Philosophical Blabbering" Interpretation End

I mean seriously - it would be one thing if Yeesha's statements like the one I mentioned above were noted every now & then - but everything that she says... or writes rather... winds up sounding like this. MYST V wasn't as bad in the frequency of encountering such statements but in URU... my goodness!!... there was no end to these types of statements. At a certain point you can just hit a wall and yes I agree with shields...for me...it ultimately became philosophical blabbering. I tried to get into it... I really did...but it's trying to sound too wise or profound when it really isn't well rooted. I like poetry because I think these statements are also trying to be poetic....but over do it and poetry too can become blabbering.

The second area where I believe you missed the mark was by comparing MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION to URU & MYST V. The first 4 are in a league of their own. ALL of CYAN's problems with the series came with URU.
MYST & RIVEN - for CYAN - for all intensive purposes were perfect...EXILE & REVELATION were also great games but moreover for purposes of this discussion are excellent examples of what could be done with MYST & RIVEN's plot & overall gaming genius. URU was the complete opposite..a complete flop....and MYST V didn't generate anywhere near the interest of its predecessors. There is no comparison.

I agree that there are too few MYSTS as you say...but URU is a far cry from being considered a "MYST" caliber game. Therein lies my disappointment and want to see a better story and or game reminiscent of MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION. Will URU Live pull it off? We'll see!

Cycreim · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 10:37 pm **Posts:** 661

Oh go ahead, pick on poor Uru ABM, it's so easy.

You know, it's kinda weird, I almost feel like ABM (do people still call it Uru Prime?) is floating off in some theoretical land, what with having gone through Prologue, participated in Until Uru, played the expansion packs, and witnessed Myst V. (WITNESS: THE MYST FIVE). It's so obviously only the tip of the iceberg, and considering it was never meant to exist in the state it was released in, I think it's unfair to judge ABM independently of all the other Uru releases and its future plans.

The thing is, Uru isn't really supposed to be a game, per se. It has game elements, but it's really something else. Uru ABM was packaged as a retail game. That was a condition as to its release, if I remember right. Going forward, as they say, new evidence may come to light that contextualizes the events of ABM, making it not such a sucky "game" after all.

If you're expecting a game from Uru Live, prepare to be disappointed. Uru will have stories in which we have to solve puzzles in Ages. There will be villains and good guys. There will be choices to make. It will be just like playing a game! Only it's not a game. You'll be able to stop playing and read about D'ni kings which have nothing to do with whatever "mission" you're on. You can hang out with your friends in Eder Delin, you can play 'heek with them later. You can run around taking pictures of pretty places. It's game-like! But it's not a game!

And it's not oatmeal!

Morningstar · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 3:52 pm **Posts:** 295

neosource wrote:

Can hunger be thirst sometimes and thirst hunger?....one must live to feel hungry. I eat and yet I am still hungry...what is this need...this desire...this urge to eat. The answer must be... because I am hungry. Is this all I am...or am I really thirsty?

Anyway, you don't have to take too seriously what Yeesha says.
Maybe some of that is too verbose, too poetic, too pretentious... but that's her character! I don't think Cyan sees Yeesha's "blabbering" as the ultimate truth or anything, so you're not required to do so .In fact, thinking it's all blabbering, you have begun your own journey to understand your meaning of Uru.

Quote:

URU is a far cry from being considered a "MYST" caliber game. Therein lies my disappointment and want to see a better story and or game reminiscent of MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION. Will URU Live pull it off? We'll see!

I answered to this in my former post...

Zander · **Posted:** Tue May 30, 2006 12:05 pm

"URU was the complete opposite..a complete flop...."

So was Star Trek, at the time. Are you hoping that if you and others call it a flop loud and often enough Live won't happen? Maybe you think Cyan would be better off turning out something different, something more like all the other games around. That's a valid viewpoint, but I don't think many on these forums would agree. They've got the funding now specifically to do what they intended to do with it at the outset. Let's see what it is, and try not to put the mockers on it before it's even happened.

Yes, if someone compels you to go a mile with them, go with them two. That way they have to walk another mile back to where they wanted to get to in the first place. :lol:

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Tue May 30, 2006 2:28 pm

Zander wrote:

No-one seems to have answered somebody's question way back around page two or so: what are the effects of taking Yeesha's journey? So, loth as I am to add more to this already overblown thread, here goes.

The problem with your well-considered analysis of the philosophy is that you listed none of your promised effects. I mean what happens to gameplay when I ask "What are the effects?" Philosophical blabbering, to me, is just the disconnect between the philosophy of Uru and gameplay; the absense of gameplay hooks into roleplay. Again, RAWA has said hooks were planned but never realized. We are commenting on Uru as it stands with the hopes the hooks are implemented to give the philosophy some substance, some "teeth."

neosource wrote:

Lastly...because at the moment I dont have the time, energy or the inclination to explain or defend myself any further...

neosource wrote:

TO Zander...

A great little post all except for the end I would say and here's why...

Looks like you got your energy back.

Zander wrote:

Are you hoping that if you and others call it a flop loud and often enough Live won't happen? Maybe you think Cyan would be better off turning out something different, something more like all the other games around. That's a valid viewpoint, but I don't think many on these forums would agree.

I can only speak for myself - not the rejuvenated neosource - but the criticisms I level at Cyan and Uru about the manufactured divisions, the prejudice of choosing sides based on the say-so of premise, and the lack of gameplay hooks into the roleplay of Uruian philosophy, are all meant to ask for improvements, not defeat.

4dak · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 11:25 am **Posts:** 457

neosource:

You have said that uru was a weak foundation. You have said this is why that Uru Live failed becuase of this weak foundation. You have said that Cyan went bankrupt becuase of this weak foundation. You have said that Myst V failed becuase of this weak foundation.

Now for the Truth.

Yes Cyan went bankrupt. But they came back better than ever. Myst V didn't fail. I consider failure like the progect being cancled. Myst V wasn't cancled and went on to win a game of the year award. I don't call that failure. Look at the top of the page read the Title of this website. It is uru live. Uru live didn't fail. It only went dormaint for a short time. I don't call Cyan comming back, Myst V game of the year, and the reviaval of Uru Live failures. I call them editions onto a great building built on the Uru foundation. If you think Uru is a weak foundation then this revival of Uru Live will fail. And if that is true why are you here? if you think that Thios progect if set to fail why are you here? Ask yourself this question and you will see that the Truth is Uru isn't the foundation. We are. Thos of us that kept Until Uru going. Those of us that didn't give up in the bleakest of hours. We are the foundation. And i say that we are one of the strongest out there!

Zander · **Posted:** Tue May 30, 2006 4:02 pm

What 4dak said. And there's your hook, JW. Uru isn't the game, it's the community. Uru is just what we do in the community, and for my money it's a sight more interesting than blowing each other up or hitting each other with swords, as they do in other game communities.

Which approach to life we adopt (Kadish or Yeesha, or somewhere in between) will govern how we roleplay in that community, how we approach the new Ages and storylines we are promised. It's not about what we're given, though that's generous enough. It's what we do with it, and that will be based on what we have learned in the single-player game, in Prologue (those of us lucky enough to be there) and in UU, about how to treat the Ages we link to and the people we encounter.

Yeesha's "blabbering" as quoted by neosource is the self-revelation of a person who is finding her own way, painfully, through confusion and remorse and possibly dubious sanity to tell her story, as Saavedro did in Exile. The crumbs metaphor seems to me quite clear, and in those terms neosource and JWPlatt and Shields seem to be expecting Yeesha to come up to them and hand them a loaf of bread, together with a knife and a butter dish. That isn't how it happened in any of the other games.

But if Yeesha's words don't hold any truth for you, then by all means ignore them. Your choice will shape how you roleplay in Live, and maybe you'll be successful where the rest of us fail. In the end, if you aren't convinced, no-one else is going to change your mind.

neosource · **Joined:** Fri May 26, 2006 10:29 pm **Posts:** 46

This post will be mostly one that corrects others unfortunately:

@ JWPlatt:

"Looks like you got your energy back." Yes...well first of all it was hours later (remember I said "at the moment"

)...2nd of all I was also responding to someone else and 3rd of all I was following up on what I originally promised and that was...that I would be back later (or did you not catch that?

). In being a "picky burger" (to use your own terms) you seem to have "picked" and chose only what you wanted so you could try to give me a little jab. That's ok but next time I suggest trying to be even "pickier" than you think you are before you try to "nit-pick" me heh heh. In any event I thought your final statement was good and you are speaking close enough for me to agree that this is most certainly about discussing the possibilities of improvements and in so doing this also means weaknesses must be revealed.

@ 4dak:

You have said that uru was a weak foundation. You have said this is why that Uru Live failed becuase of this weak foundation. You have said that Cyan went bankrupt becuase of this weak foundation. You have said that Myst V failed becuase of this weak foundation.

Well not entirely. I said Uru's plot has a weak foundation & therefore yes the game too is weak. The gaming engine is also weak. The original URU live yes was a failure however that doesn't mean this "new" URU Live doesn't have the potential to succeed especially if it works on its plot & starts updating. I never said MYST V failed because it had a weak foundation...I simply said it has not succeeded like its predecessors (which could be considered failure too I guess) and therefore shows that it too is tied & effected by URU's weaknesses...& also provides a good litmus test for URU's supposed improvements/develoments in plot.

I hate to say it but CYAN did not come back better than ever....not yet anyway...yet I hope they do and this is part of my concern in URU's plot & with the choice of going down the URU path again knowing it has not given them the best of results. They are still struggling thanks to URU. So thanks for your vote of confidence in attempting to declare the truth but that's simply not true. They are still trying to pick themselves up - MYST V was their last attempt (that did not succeed as well as MYST & RIVEN) & now URU Live is the next attempt to help generate funds. Again it would be nice to see it succeed but MYST & RIVEN are the only games to have proven to be a solid successful foundation to build upon to date. Admirable sentiments with regards to us being the foundation but time & money (the 2 very same excuses/reasons people give why games could have been better or not) unfortunately are also key ingredients to any good foundation when it comes to gaming....just ask CYAN. To answer your question further....I am here to help keep it real, fair and also in the hope that by revealing/discussing weaknesses... strength will be found. Is that ok with you? That last statement was inspiried by Yeesha's "philosophical blabbering" by the way.

@ Zander:

Yes, if someone compels you to go a mile with them, go with them two. That way they have to walk another mile back to where they wanted to get to in the first place.

Uhh you are responding to my signature here "heretic" - that has nothing to do with the discussion! If you'd like to discuss this topic in a pm I'd be happy to do so with you. If you're just trying to mock my signature then I suppose I deserve it a little for mocking Yeesha. OOOHH how dare I!

So was Star Trek, at the time. Are you hoping that if you and others call it a flop loud and often enough Live won't happen? Maybe you think Cyan would be better off turning out something different, something more like all the other games around. That's a valid viewpoint, but I don't think many on these forums would agree. They've got the funding now specifically to do what they intended to do with it at the outset. Let's see what it is, and try not to put the mockers on it before it's even happened.

Did you enjoy that conversation with yourself there trying to project what it is that I think? First of all URU is also a far cry from Star Trek. MYST & RIVEN are much closer. Second of all...my hope can be found in the original subject of this thread "Make a real story this time." - Maybe they will not only hear about areas that need serious attention but be able to adjust accordingly & thus succeed. Third of all...I do not think they should be turning out games like others out there meaning shoot em' up etc....(although they should be like other games at the very least matching and at the very best beating the quality in technology as well as story).
4th of all take it as mockery if you want - and ok ok Green Eggs & Ham was maybe a tad mocking

...but the main point is not to mock but to reveal. Last comment inspired by "Philosophical blabbering."

Lastly I simply took one quote from Yeesha & threw it up there for an example of what can be interpreted as "philosophical blabbering"...there are a ton of her quotes that have this way of writing to them. the point was not to start expanding, justifying and explaining what she meant by that statement...the point is that we understand exactly what she says...but at a certain point it is completely overdone & can fit the terminlogy "philosophical blabbering" quite well...at least for me & others.

@ Morningstar

Yes you're right in about taking it too seriously but at the same time in order to really get into something you have to take it seriously... so I tried to take this seriously and found that I just couldn't...and therein lies the dilemma and a possible area of improvement from my perspective.

@ Cycreim

Nice post and interesting take on not considering URU a game...haven't thought of it that way before...yes and you're right it is all too easy to pick on Yeesha....

I should leave the poor girl alone.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Tue May 30, 2006 7:14 pm

neosource wrote:

This post will be mostly one that corrects others unfortunately:

@ JWPlatt:

In being a "picky burger" (to use your own terms) ...

Never said it. Show your source.

Make a real story this time.

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