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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:02 pm 
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The lake light is a public good. It affects everyone, it benefits everyone to have a bright lake.

Generally speaking, in the real world, public goods (like the military) are provided by the government. In socialist societies, this is because everything is. In capitalist societies, this is because private companies are not willing to spend money on things that will benefit everyone, including people who don't pay them for it.


But in this case this public good hinges upon and is provided by individuals. And yet there is no reward for contributing yourself. There is only a mutually shared reward for contribution in general.


Altruists will do it anyway. But those who are selfish (and they are a significant portion) will say, "I get the lake light no matter what. Why should I do the work myself?"


So we need reward incentives. Pieces of clothing, relto pages, maybe even small areas or ages for those who reach a certain benchmark of pellet points. This personalizes the benefit. You get something for doing something yourself, not just for things done.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:14 pm 
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Very good idea. This would be very easy to implement. Since the KI is already recording contributions via points a reward should be easy to place.


Last edited by boshettee on Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:18 pm 
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Wow, deja vu, man!

Zardoz in this DRC thread wrote:
What worries me about these collective puzzles is that I’m pretty sure Cyan has not read up on their Mancur Olson, the father of the Logic of Collective Action, specifically the free rider problem. This problem crops up when an individual can enjoy the benefits of a group’s action (the big cheese) but bears only a small part of any negative consequences (or costs) of that action. More importantly, those benefits accrue to all individuals regardless of whether or how much they contribute to that action. The logical result is for all individuals to reduce or even eliminate their contributions, and so little or nothing is accomplished even though everyone would be better off bearing the small cost and enjoying the group benefit. In Uru Live, we have an example of such logic, or at least as I see it, in the slow going toward recalibrating the Great Zero. And now it appears . . . that restoring the lake algae will involve a similar group effort, and therefore could fall victim to the same logic.

There are ways of overcoming this logic of collective inaction short of imposing dictatorial controls (as I famously did in the DRC Liaison Elections ;) ). The most obvious is to reduce the size of the cheese and offer a small chunk to each mouse. And so we get bragging rights for fast marker mission times - but that really hasn’t emerged, in part because of the bug that persists in recording the times but also in part because those missions just aren’t proving a strong enough basis for generating excitement. Rallying a particular hood to engage in collective action is another way to overcome the logic, but such efforts still need some interim cheese to get any sense of reward.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:44 pm 
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Just a leaderboard for the marker missions and the lake would be cool... maybe the top 10 or 25 scores on a wall imager in the city?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:06 am 
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Agreed. That would be nice.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:09 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
Agreed. That would be nice.


Ok... I'll get the light bulbs and you make the mounting bracket. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:37 am 
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no offense, but dont really like the idea. If I want to compete I'd be playing WOW, EQ2, Vanguard or any of the several other multi player games.

If Mystonline ever becomes a competition I'll be the first to leave. competition is the main reason I don't play those other games. It changes people and makes them A holes.

Personally I don't see any reason to make the lake brighter. I also see no reason to not do it, but its not really something that I stay awake at night worring about.
Theres plenty of light in the cavern, accually theres more light in this cavern then in a normal cavern.

In all honesty I never even looked at the ovens myself. I just got my cloths and left. I messed with those things in the single player version and have lost all interest in them.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:14 am 
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We have the Pellets Points which you can use to show what you've done to brighten the Cavern. Though I agree, a Top 10 or something like that would be nice.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:22 am 
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Erik wrote:
We have the Pellets Points which you can use to show what you've done to brighten the Cavern. Though I agree, a Top 10 or something like that would be nice.


But the only way to actually SHOW your point total to someone is to take a screen capture and mail it or post it outside of the cavern. You can't take a KI shot of your KI screen.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:34 am 
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Lighting the lake should be enough of a reward, as it is a way that the players can contribute to the restoration, if people want the prize, then they should look at the bigger picture, and lighting the lake is quite a big part of that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:36 am 
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Quote:
Lighting the lake should be enough of a reward, as it is a way that the players can contribute to the restoration, if people want the prize, then they should look at the bigger picture, and lighting the lake is quite a big part of that.


I understand the sentiment, but c'mon, nobody felt a need to play Super Mario Bros. because they had to "rescue the princess," they did it because it was fun to play. I think you're confusing IC and OOC. The cavern can be lit up whenever Cyan wants it to.

It doesn't matter. The lake lighting is a story point, just like the GZ activation was. I don't even know if Cyan has a way to calculate the total contribution, not that I think it would be hard for them to do, surely they can just access the main database, but what reason would they have when they can just progress it on their own pace, as we all suspect that they did with the GZ?

Bringing up the collective contribution theory is a good way to engage the DRC on the IC logic here, but I think that that's missing the true fallacy of asking explorers to do this.

Most people, myself included, will not contribute (aside from the initial completing the age, which I did last night), not because we're looking to get a free ride, or because we have anything against the effort IC, but because we're not at all convinced that anything we do means a whit to the actual storyline progress.

And considering how boring cooking pellets is, even compared to the competitive monotony of running the marker missions, I'm happy to have done it once and only once. I can't imagine running back and forth in Er'cana (all alone) when I have no evidence that I'm even making a measurable impact.

That's grunt work, not gameplay.

However, I'm not criticizing the age or the new "perfect recipe" puzzle, not at all, I think it's a very clever change from the boxed version... I'm just not personally interested in finding that recipe. In fact I'd be happiest if Cyan just came out and said that it doesn't make a difference, so people who are interested can be competitive with their pellet score, and/or try to "solve" the perfect recipe puzzle, and I can just sit back and wait for the story to develop, and (IC) assume that we all did our part.

If our contributions actually *do* make a difference, and Cyan, not the DRC, came out and told us how the system worked (OOC), without revealing the exact numbers involved, of course, then it might make me interested in doing a little more grunt work for the group, and Cyan wouldn't have to reveal anything they didn't want to.

Also, if that were the case, the "collective contribution" problem really does come into play, and more importantly, we as players (not explorers) would know it, and so... our challenge is to fight it! Wouldn't it be great for community leaders to rally support for the effort, thus proving that dedicated explorers *can* make a difference beyond just cooking their own pellets day in and day out?

As it stands, I just don't wanna find out that I've been wasting my time, or even suspect so. That's not selfishness, that's logic. I'd be happy to do a little crap work, even in a game, but only if I knew that it meant something, and I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise. My avatar and I are separate entities, after all, role-playing can only go so far. Can you blame me?

But... your mileage may vary, I can imagine that, for some, finding the right formula for the pellets, and getting a "high score," to be a fun challenge worth the effort, regardless of if it really matters to anyone else.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:37 pm 
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If you are missing competition for this lake lighting, then just form a group of people who try to produce bad pellets with the goal of darkening the lake. I guess when it gets so dark in the cavern that you can not see where you move, then people will have reason enough to invest some time in brightening the lake again.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:21 pm 
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Let me clear my throat ... cough cough.. (its giving you a score in your KI.. do you really think we will never use that score?) cough cough..

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:36 pm 
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greydragon wrote:
Let me clear my throat ... cough cough.. (its giving you a score in your KI.. do you really think we will never use that score?) cough cough..



W00T!


Thank you, I am happy.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:58 pm 
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I might be wrong here but there's a digital read out on the machine that's monitoring the lake, maybe that's the leader board (with it fluctuating from 0-1 (going up to 100% eventually?)) ...

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