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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:35 am 
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Wow. Ok. I've given this some time to settle in, to see if it gets any less distasteful to me after enough days pass.

Hasn't happened yet. Still every bit as distasteful as before, if not moreso.

So here I am, getting close to eating lots of crow: for all the times I've answered folks saying "if you don't release new stuff, well, I'm just going to LEAVE, I MEAN it," and said "don't let the door hit you on the way out"...

The truth is, that's a cry for help. And there wasn't any help for them. There wasn't going to be new stuff anytime soon.

But here I am, seeing the game I have loved for the bulk of a decade, get turned into something I have no interest in playing.

So I acknowledge this as a pathetic cry for help, but can't stop myself anyway.

I have no interest in a game where folks who dig in to the guts of it can officially be made superior to the rest of us.

Seriously! "Testing to see if their changes break the live server?" Absolute nonsense. That's what Rehearsal and such are for. This is to keep some folks extra happy who have the expertise to do bad things if they aren't kept happy. Testing is done on test servers. Egos are stroked by doing this on the main server.

So the cry for help. I've been in since the beginning, survived a couple of total collapses of Uru, and stuck in through thick and thin. And the news over the last week has almost killed my interest completely. Losing Uru, I survived. But corrupting it? Help! I don't want to quit Uru. Unsee, unsee!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:10 am 
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The GoI/FH hoods aren't for "testing". The gray hats have (I assume) been testing on separate servers, as you say, for some time. This new development is specifically because muggles like me want to see people doing neat stuff -- and it's isolated to two set-aside locations specifically to avoid corrupting the game experience for people who aren't interested.

I think you've misread the sociopolitical scenario here. It's going to be okay. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:32 am 
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Vid, thank you for your feedback.

I think the assertion that having this playground somehow makes Grey Hats immediately superior - well I think that's something that not just Grey Hats would take objection to. We're not superior people. But, everyone is superior to others in one way or another. But I can't speak for other people, so I'll speak for me.

The skydivers are superior to me in their ability to get past barriers and go where no avatar was supposed to go.
The other Grey Hats are all superior to me in their hacking abilities. I'm a baby in comparison.
All of the translators working on the ULP are superior to me in their multiple language speaking skills.
And I am superior than you in my understanding of OHBot.

But I am no better than you, and you are no better than me. This is a community of equals. You'll also note that everything in that list that defines "superiority" is something learned. And that's what we're talking about.

The difference here, is that the Grey Hats skill is something that's traditionally frowned upon by game developers. So, to make use of this skill, sanction was a prerequisite. Others don't need special sanction to practice their skills. The skydivers could already explore and the multi-lingual folks could teach others how to speak their language. Of course, that's a very limited list of groups.

Please keep things in context. Your enjoyment of MO:UL will not be impacted by Cyan's decision to allow the Grey Hats to learn, demonstrate and teach the skill they love. At least, it won't if you don't want it to. The beauty of RAWA's proposal is that is allows the hacks to be performed in an isolated environment. We are more than satisfied with this arrangement.

And also remember the purpose here. Most testing IS done on other shards. But MO:UL is still unique. As there is no test MO:UL server that can be used, learning here in a responsible way allows for further progress to occur. Open-source will be here one day. And when that day arrives, no matter what it looks like, the knowledge gained will be invaluable. It already has been. Even in just a few days we've collectively learned quite a lot about the client and Plasma...things that were previously known.

"Corrupting it" is the last thing on our minds. In the end, the efforts of the Grey Hats are to /preserve/ it. It's special - and we appreciate that.

Now, you might not agree with the methodology here...that's fine. But you can't argue with the good intentions behind it as presented by both the Grey Hats and Cyan. I'd rather people not look at this is some radical change, but rather an extension. Also remembering that anyone is welcome to use this opportunity to learn more about MO:UL and Plasma and join us. The community at large could use more people with a technical understanding of the behind-the-scenes action.

So, please don't go anywhere on account of us. We've been through a lot in the past year and the community is still and growing stronger every day. I ought to know...I've caused a good bit of that commotion.

I speak on behalf of the Grey Hats, and certainly on half of many explorers when I say, everyone has their place in this community and we don't want anyone to just walk away when things are getting so darn exciting.


If you have any specific questions or concerns that I can address, please let me know.

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Last edited by OHB on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:35 am 
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I would normally agree completely with your sentiments, Vidroth, as I've been against hacking of any kind from the very beginning but here I'm gonna take a big bite of my foot and defend the hackers for once. Unfortunately, as it stands Cyan cant do anything with Uru other than keep it online with the help of all those wonderful donations. I'd wager that the few who call themselves "grey hats" probably know more about the technical aspects of Uru than most if not all of the people still working at Cyan today. In any situation where someone has more knowledge of the system than others there will always be cries of elitism. If you feel they've been given more power than anyone else then learn the code and oppose them on even ground.
All of them were at the Guild Meet and none of them have shown any signs of malicious intent.
Everything they're doing is within the code already. All they can really do is flip things on or off including avatar animations and the like. Nothing that couldn't be done with an admin KI back in UU. I personally feel that the fun house and illusions hoods are a breath of much needed fresh air. If you don't want to participate there's nothing stopping you from simply staying out of those hoods.
I will say that the demonstration in the public Ae'gura was very distasteful because it ruins the atmosphere of the main cavern for those like myself that like to stay as much in character as possible, but so long as everything remains in the hood instances I'm all for it. At this point, anything that attracts a lot of people is good for Uru. That's my two cents anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:46 am 
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if you're looking for people to say, "please don't go" i'm afraid you're running the risk of some people telling you off and even if others agree with you there are those who are gonna try and explain their own way of things in a way you may not accept.

objection was inevitable in this case... i was quite excited when the announcement was made but i am just as concerned as the next person what this might mean for uru... s'pose that has yet to be seen, but, ohb and the so called gray hats have managed to cement their respect and care in their treatment for uru in my eyes; it may be safe to say we are looking at responsible coders who are genuienly interested in uru's future... talk about this new development is bound to occur and everyone has their say in the matter but if you don't wish to be part of it you very well don't have to be...

if my honest opinion means anything, it's that i think some of the gray hat's are rather egotistical... do they have this "elietist" persona people have mentioned? no, i don't think so... they're good at what they do; but are they doing it just for themselves? no... it's as fun and pratical for them as it is for us i believe...

i'm sure Cyan would love to please everyone but that just isn't possible... seems like a majority of people are excited about this; if anyone isn't they don't need to experience it if they don't want to...

if you think leaving is the solution i'd say that is unfortunate... but there's no one who can make you stay or go aside from yourself...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:04 am 
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vidroth wrote:
I have no interest in a game where folks who dig in to the guts of it can officially be made superior to the rest of us.

To be blunt, I'm not sure how your interest in Uru has lasted this long. I was chosen to meet Phil Henderson when he first emerged from the cave in Eder Kemo; I was made "superior" to other, ordinary explorers. Tink was chosen to meet Phil after he was kidnapped by the DRC; she was made "superior" to other, ordinary explorers. Brian Fioca was chosen to interact with Doug Sharper; he was made "superior" to other, ordinary explorers. Rils and reteltee were chosen to play roles in the GameTap resurrection of Uru; they were made "superior" to other, ordinary explorers. And the list goes on - all chosen by Cyan, all "officially superior" to everyone else.

This round of Cyan-blessed superiority doesn't bother me, although I'm not sure what the fuss is all about, as fog colors, Bahro, random Arch movements and the like are pretty minor parlor tricks. This doesn't mean I'm unimpressed with the GoW, as I know this is exceptionally minor stuff from their point of view; instead, I'm underwhelmed by the fact that so many people find this exciting, as it foreshadows a return to the UU days of thirty foot cones as the mainstay of Uru entertainment. And until the GoW shows some appreciation that this is not a UU-like playground but the mainstem of shared universe where the appearance of a Bahro has portent, not just entertainment, I'll hold my respect for the GoW in abeyance.

So, my advice is to get over it. Uru died long ago, it's just that its zombie powers are amazing.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:18 am 
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true... perhaps for those of us who haven't seen other itterations of uru (i've only been a part of Myst Online and the myst community *just about* as long as MOULa has been running and proud of it) it's far more interesting than those of you who have been here since ye olden days would consider it...

i both envy and pitty you... envy you because you saw all these "parlor tricks" back when URU was in full swing; i pitty you because since then "parlor tricks" are one of the few new (though not necessarily more meaningful) ways in which to generate excitment amongst the masses...

... if the best can be expected it would be that these endevors have some bearing on bringing Myst Online back to form...

and in regards to a disclaimer, my considering "some" of the Gray Hats "egotisctical" is in no ways meant to be an insult (some by their own admission have said as much) by my definition, egotistical is having a high opinion of oneself... where as "elietist" would be having a low opinion of others...
... there is nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself :)

from what i have seen, the gray hats have been nothing but fair and considerate and informative (dare i say modest?) about this situation...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:40 am 
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Zardoz wrote:
Uru died long ago, it's just that its zombie powers are amazing.


I agree with everything you said, Zardoz.. everything except that. I don't think.. No I refuse to believe that Uru is dead. It's just waiting for someone to wake it the fiery abyss up.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:45 am 
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Really? Superior? Really? Well, if that's how you truly feel, then see ya.

I was at the demo in the Fun House. I thought it was simply amazing (even if it was lag-a-palooza, lol)! The powers of the grey hats were wonderful to watch, and it was really nice to be back in the Cavern and see so many people!

I really guess I don't understand why you are complaining. They have NOT been given permission to play around with the public version of the city, nor have they been given permission to change or do anything with other peoples' ages. The grey hats have been granted the privilege to use these two very specific hoods (and I assume the related hood-instanced ages) to demonstrate what is possible with knowledge of the MO:UL code.

The hoods are available through the nexus, yes. But no one is forced to go, and anyone who does go does so with full knowledge about where they are going and what they are about to see. No one goes in there expecting it to be IC, so the story isn't broken.

It's all voluntary, so really, what the heck do you have to complain about? That's like the people on Youtube who complain and make nasty comments about videos. They didn't have to click on the video and watch it, and in this case, neither did you.

(/rant)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:48 am 
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protoomega wrote:
(and I assume the related hood-instanced ages)


Yes.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:58 am 
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Zardoz wrote:
This round of Cyan-blessed superiority doesn't bother me, although I'm not sure what the fuss is all about, as fog colors, Bahro, random Arch movements and the like are pretty minor parlor tricks. This doesn't mean I'm unimpressed with the GoW, as I know this is exceptionally minor stuff from their point of view; instead, I'm underwhelmed by the fact that so many people find this exciting, as it foreshadows a return to the UU days of thirty foot cones as the mainstay of Uru entertainment. And until the GoW shows some appreciation that this is not a UU-like playground but the mainstem of shared universe where the appearance of a Bahro has portent, not just entertainment, I'll hold my respect for the GoW in abeyance.

So, my advice is to get over it. Uru died long ago, it's just that its zombie powers are amazing.


I have a question for you: what do you wish to see?

If you wish to see real story, real progress of the story? you won't see it, and don't blame the GoW, or the Grey Hats... As RAWA has /specifically/ defined everything that happens in these hoods as "Special effects". =) Nothing more.

As much as I'd love to see new story, and actual progress, that, at present, is something the Grey Hats are allowed to do.

Also, PS: Its the Grey Hats, not the GoW ;) Bit of a membership overlap, but not the same, sorry. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:11 am 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
I have a question for you: what do you wish to see?


You weren't asking me, but I have an answer to this anyway. :D

I don’t have any great intention of bothering too much with the Hood of Illusions or the Fun House. I’m sure they’re quite interesting, but that kind of interest is not why I came to the Cavern in July of last year. I wanted to be part of Uru since I heard it was around; just could never afford the hardware I would have needed in order to play (and it kept closing on me, dammit, just when I thought I was getting close). But when things finally came together, and processor power met MOULa, it was the sheer beauty of the place I wanted to see. Relto, Gahreesen, Kadish Tolesa, and of course D’ni Ae'gura itself, with the Arch of Kerath majestic and awesome across the waters: Uru, to me, has always been about art, the art of creating beautiful environments, good for the eyes and the ears, and good for the soul. Later, I met the community, and now I have a number of reasons to spend time down there, some of whom are on my buddy list; but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m much more interested in experiencing the aesthetic impact of it as a finished product (to the extent that it got that far) than in watching it being tweaked.

So I’m not much interested in the new Hoods. Does that mean I’m against them? No, of course not. What OHB says is absolutely true: this initiative is a godsend for those with the gifts and inclination to learn more about how Uru works, and I’m all in favour of it—precisely because what I want is not technical wizardry, but artistic beauty, and I know that achieving the latter is granted only to those who have mastered the former.

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Last edited by Gahlen on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:02 am 
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Gahlen wrote:
...this initiative is a godsend for those with the gifts and inclination to learn more about how Uru works, and I’m all in favour of it—precisely because what I want is not technical wizardry, but artistic beauty, and I know that achieving the latter is granted only to those who have mastered the former.


That, was a lovely example of artistic beauty. I read that aloud to some others and their reactions were both "WOW". Very lovely works and I'm honored to have them grace our sub-forum :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:08 pm 
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OHB wrote:
Gahlen wrote:
...this initiative is a godsend for those with the gifts and inclination to learn more about how Uru works, and I’m all in favour of it—precisely because what I want is not technical wizardry, but artistic beauty, and I know that achieving the latter is granted only to those who have mastered the former.


That, was a lovely example of artistic beauty. I read that aloud to some others and their reactions were both "WOW". Very lovely works and I'm honored to have them grace our sub-forum :)


Yes, that was definitely beautiful. It's a perfect example of why I love this community.

But I do think this thread is a perfect example of how misunderstandings and misinformation spreads. The things that happen are isolated and you don't have to take part in them. The only time where the effects may be felt outside of the hood is when there's suddenly 210 Eddies to handle :P

What really speaks about this whole situation is how the GHs are handling it. If something doesn't go right, they learn from that experience and modify what they're doing (in this case they made sure the Eddie limit is known and are working on ways to reverse what they've done in case of emergency).

So really, there's no need to leave the game. If you don't like the special effects then The Fun House and The Hood of Illusions become nothing but two lines in the Public Links on the Nexus register.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:44 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
I have a question for you: what do you wish to see?

If you wish to see real story, real progress of the story? you won't see it, and don't blame the GoW, or the Grey Hats... As RAWA has /specifically/ defined everything that happens in these hoods as "Special effects". =) Nothing more.

I don't believe I directed blame toward the GHs (point taken about the distinction) for the lack of story progress. Instead, I see a glimmer of an attitude among the GHs that reminds me of the Wizard of Oz. (I'll leave that one for you to ponder.) No, nearly all of my "blame" is directed at factors that went into play long before the GHs ever appeared, and alas, late night (for me) posting is never a good idea. I usually reserve those thoughts for my pony to express.

Indeed, I think this step is a good one, but I sincerely hope it is a first one and a minor one. As for what I want, I have expressed those desires elsewhere and I stand by those thoughts. And as for the OP, my advice is still the same, Tough Luv message: Do not be offended by whatever apparent "special status" people are granted by Cyan. Instead, judge the actions those people take by whether they (eventually) deliver a product that fits within the high standards of Uru we all expected.


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