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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:38 am 
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If people want to revive the greeters, why aren't they pulling shifts now unofficially? I've only ever seen non-GoG people hanging out in the GoG hood once. There are people who need assistance or questions answered before January.

I've been hanging out in the GoG hood for at least a couple of hours every evening to help people for over a week now, and I don't need a title for it. Giving assistance is its own reward. If you're serious about wanting to help, then do it instead of waiting for the hat and t-shirt.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:44 am 
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People like to know there's a support system behind them to make their individual efforts more socially rewarding.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:11 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
If people want to revive the greeters, why aren't they pulling shifts now unofficially? I've only ever seen non-GoG people hanging out in the GoG hood once. There are people who need assistance or questions answered before January.

I've been hanging out in the GoG hood for at least a couple of hours every evening to help people for over a week now, and I don't need a title for it. Giving assistance is its own reward. If you're serious about wanting to help, then do it instead of waiting for the hat and t-shirt.


Individual helpers are always needed and appreciated, but it's probably not all you do while in the cavern, right? The Greeters will be there, as they have been in the past, as an official, organized group specifically to help those that need it and to welcome newcomers to the cavern. Basically, they are the "front line" in getting new explorers orientated and keeping them coming back. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:13 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
People like to know there's a support system behind them to make their individual efforts more socially rewarding.


Point taken, but that can also be construed as an excuse. All an organization really should be for is to organize. That is, to make sure that not everyone is covering the same hour or two out of the day. As I sit in the GoG hood right now, there's a member of the old GoG next to me (ural, as a matter of fact), and he's doing his bit even though his organization has all but collapsed. He hasn't been here every night I have, but he's still justifying the shirt he's wearing with or without others behind him.

Now, please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your comment, but I just don't see that one should want to be a greeter for social recognition. It should be because one really wants to be of use. I've helped a few players, and answered a few questions, and the thanks I get from the players is all the reward I need. It makes the hours sitting with nothing but the sound of the fountain for company worth it for me.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that it isn't a good thing for players to want to be part of a new greeters organization. What I'm saying is, if you really want to help other players, then don't wait for the New Greeters to kick off. Start right now. Being useful unofficially is every bit as good as being useful when you have a title under your name. The GoG hood shouldn't be an uninhabited wasteland most of the day. It should be a reliable place to go for advice and information, or to get help with multi-player puzzles.


Last edited by larryf58 on Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:15 am 
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I think this could be a beneficial thing in the long run, so I don't especially want to come down on it in a too negative way (perhaps I should just stop there …), but it does leaves a slightly troubling taste in my mouth. I can't help asking myself: what do the people we will now, I suppose, start calling the "Guild of Old Greeters" (GoOG?) feel about this …?

Trekluver wrote:
I spoke to a former greeter about this

Just one? You spoke to one solitary Greeter (and was "former" your word or his) before storming off to replace the entire GoG? No attempt to engage with ural (who would obviously never describe himself as a former Greeter: he is a current one), no pm to oldmanjob or Ken or any of the others who are still posting to the MOUL forums? No conversation on their forum, no attempt to extend an invitation to them to be part of this, perhaps in small, easy steps? Do it with them, at least some of them? They surely can't read this as anything other than an affront. Were I in their shoes, I certainly would.

Trekluver also wrote:
all former greeters will be offered their old jobs back

This is not good. Essentially, you're saying that you've fired them all (incl. ural?), but you're kindly offering to take them back in. I'm sure they'll be immensely grateful. I wonder what Nalates would think if one day I decided that the Cartographers were essentially moribund, set up a Guild of New Cartographers with me running it (you can call the job whatever you want: you are setting all the rules and entry requirements here, you've written to Cyan and decided on the snazzy new logo, you'll be creating the webpage … Guildmasters are no different), and then informed her that I'd now made her and her Guild redundant but that, if she wanted, she could have her old job back in mine … 'cause I'm a nice guy after all …

So two separate things. This new organisation might well turn out to be a helpful thing for the Cavern if it really facilitates the work of welcoming and helping newcomers, I'm not disputing that. But I think that if your description above of how you've gone about it is accurate, this has been a really problematic way of setting it up.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:30 am 
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The truth is the Guild, as it was, was going nowhere. It has been dormant for far too long. It needed a shake-up, pure and simple. Given all the negativity that's been going around the cavern lately, it was about time someone took up the cause to bring another positive element into the mix...that element being the GoG.

Many people have fond memories of the Guild and its hood in its heyday. To simply keep it dormant because stepping on the toes of people who don't want to do anything with it is foolish, IMO. It doesn't belong to just a select group, it belongs to all of us...the fans.

So I think of this as a much-needed reboot of a once proud URU Guild...one that has been sorely needed for awhile. And they're not "firing" the current Greeters; the New Greeters are giving all of them plenty of opportunity to join in on the transition to make their Guild great again...or not, if they so choose.

So say what you want...I'm glad some action has FINALLY been taken.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:54 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
Now, please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your comment, but I just don't see that one should want to be a greeter for social recognition.

Your interpretation has a selfish connotation; to get something rather than to give. So that's incorrect. Most people would rather not feel lonely. Most people are social and many of them feel rewarded by helping others. It's not about recognition, though selfless recognition of others is a positive thing. If there are more individuals already occupying the GoG hood, there's your support system. And they are free to join the new GoG organization, start their own, or just do the individualistic things as you are. There's freedom and those who do a good job attract more people who want to do a good job.

Gahlen. Really. Why, when folks are doing something positive? Raising the specter, and I might add, the paper tiger, of an inactive group, simply incites a negative thread which threatens to defeat positive efforts. One might call that scorched earth politics. If they were interested, there would be no need to fill here. There are always ways to parse words in some fashion to highlight invented offense to others. I'd much rather read Trekluver's words in a positive sense with their intended, and common sense, meanings because no one always gets their sentences to read exactly right all the time for everyone.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:00 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Your interpretation has a selfish connotation; to get something rather than to give. So that's incorrect.


Okay. Your wording was unclear enough that I couldn't be certain that you weren't saying just that. Thanks for the clarification.

Although ural left about an hour ago, so I'm holding down the fort alone. Still, I just had a guy drop in with some questions, so it's all good.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:15 am 
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This is a good thing. Let the old GoG rot in the past that they are so firmly entrenched in. Those who truly wish to do good will join you, I expect. To the New Greeters: do us all a favor and prove to them (the ones who sit in the ivory towers) that "outsiders" can "run a guild."

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:17 am 
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Gahlen wrote:
Trekluver wrote:
I spoke to a former greeter about this

Just one? You spoke to one solitary Greeter (and was "former" your word or his) before storming off to replace the entire GoG? No attempt to engage with ural (who would obviously never describe himself as a former Greeter: he is a current one), no pm to oldmanjob or Ken or any of the others who are still posting to the MOUL forums? No conversation on their forum, no attempt to extend an invitation to them to be part of this, perhaps in small, easy steps? Do it with them, at least some of them? They surely can't read this as anything other than an affront. Were I in their shoes, I certainly would.


If this were any other organization we were referring to then I would agree with you. I was going to write an article for the GoMe about the internal affairs of the GoG awhile back. At the time the idea was considered too controversial to move forward. I was going to speak about several issues within the Guild itself. I even talked to Dadguy about it and informed him when the idea didn't go through. This was some time ago. The situation with the GoG hasn't changed since then.

The main problems started when the Guild itself wasn't adjusting well to the opening of MOULa. The GoG of course is a voluntary organization and greeters help out in their spare time. However when RL gets busy not everyone has time to spare. The only way to remedy the problem of not having enough active greeters is to recruit new people. The GoG had plans to set up a system like this but it never happened. In fact the people in charge of the guild seemed to be failing in their primary responsibility which was to have greeters waiting in the hood to help new explorers. So the GoG has become an inactive guild since they are unable to fulfill their primary purpose.

The next problem to the GoG was the inability to get new leadership. There has been a power block in the GoG since the start of MOULa. Things were not getting done because those in charge of the guild took no action. I know that several greeters within the GoG wanted to elect new people to administrative positions. However no elections took place and those at the top have held onto their power. So there was nobody who was able to take charge and bring the guild in a positive direction.

The whole point of the GoG is to meet and greet new explorers who come into the cavern and give them a tour of the game as well as help them with questions and puzzles. Considering how many new explorers are coming into the game this is a very important job. When an organization like the GoG is unable to correct their own problems and fulfill the needs they are responsible for then they are just leaving themselves open to being replaced by a more efficient organization.

This is a very good thing for the community. Once more we will have greeters in cavern who will help new players. Now the new GoG will always provide a place that new explorers can go where they can count on finding help in cavern. While the old GoG has provided help that can be sought on their website they have not provided a constant source of help in cavern for MOULa. If you support the old GoG you should tell them to wake up. If they continue to do nothing then they will be replaced.

larryf58 wrote:
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that it isn't a good thing for players to want to be part of a new greeters organization. What I'm saying is, if you really want to help other players, then don't wait for the New Greeters to kick off. Start right now. Being useful unofficially is every bit as good as being useful when you have a title under your name. The GoG hood shouldn't be an uninhabited wasteland most of the day. It should be a reliable place to go for advice and information, or to get help with multi-player puzzles.


Having an official place for new explorers to go is more helpful because of organization. We have groups that help fulfill needs within the community. Just having a bunch of people in one place doesn't allow for much organization or planning. I can agree that everyone should be willing to provide help though.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:17 am 
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Let me take a minute to clarify some things, starting with what Gahlen said.

The Guild of Old Greeters as you put it, is dead. By dead I mean the guild as an organization is dead; they do not communicate or talk ever. This is bad for the cavern. Now to explain exactly how things happened.

I contacted dadguy (the only former greeter I knew of at the time) about about rebooting the GoG and this is what he had to say:

Quote:
As a Greeter, I was in the Cavern EVERY night (doing duty in the GoG Hood) from the first day that MOULAgain started in Feb 10 till this summer around July. In addition, I was one of the Moderators of the forum.

It was because of griefers (both in the Cavern and the forums) that I finally lost my enthusiasm for the daily support of the community. So, I resigned as a Moderator and stopped going in every day. It was a thankless job as people ripped the Greeters and Moderators alike, while all we were doing was volunteering our time and energy to keep the game alive.

I say "go for it". I have been trying for two years to get the Greeters admin to open the process up to allow new Greeters, but they have declined saying they were tired of coming in every night and standing alone for an hour. I can understand that.

So, if you can get a new group together, go for it! You don't need the Greeters endorsement to try something new. And I am not an admin at the Greeters, so I have no official say. As far as I know, I am the ONLY Greeter to come in regularly, although Robbyn is a Greeter and comes in every 2 - 4 weeks...


So according to him the GoG was dead as early as two years ago. He told me about Robbyn; I searched and found no trace of him still being active. Because of this, and the fact that I needed more advice, I spoke to Leonardo from the GoMe. He told me about ural and how he still greeted outside the old GoG. I was never able to get in touch with ural though. So from there I went to Cyan, to see what they thought. (You know, their game, their cavern, their forum.) Cyan politely sent their approval in the message you can read above. I'll also say I've politely gotten honest approval from JW and Mac_fife.

This has been in process taking several weeks now; I never took maters fully into mine own hands and I'm still not intending to replace the GoG. What I'm doing is reviving it (Under a new name) and politely asking that former/current/inactive/whateveryouwanttocallthem members get the first chance to resume greeter activities. The reason why? Because new New Greeters will need to take a training course which I still have to organize. I'll say once more (To reiterate that I'm not being a control freak) I will be a guild admin ONLY (meaning I will approve guild sanctioned events and activities). Aside from that everybody will be on the same level from everything to decision making to member approval. I don't know how much more plain and simple I can put all this. When Cyan's saying yes, the other guilds are saying yes, the mods are saying yes, and the former greeters I can dig up are saying yes, then I don't see the problem. I'll end with this; the Guld of Greeters were always the players guild. It was never "Let me try and show out," it was never "Let me see how much fame I can get in the cavern," it was "Let's see how we can best help people." I want that to be the New Greeters other motto. We may be "The Guild of Greeters, for a better D'ni," but we can also be the guild that only wants to help.

-

To answer larryf58's question,

That's perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, I am telling any greeters that sign up to go ahead and greet if they want. I'm sure several will during this time. These things come in tiny steps; the big step was rebooting the guild. ;) Give us some time and you might start seeing us in the city before January. (We don't intend to use the GoG hood unless people IC (i.e. not on this forum) want us to use it)

I think JW already successfully answered your other question. We're not out for fame and glory. Read what I said to Gahlen above to clarify.

-

Adam, I understand what you mean but try to keep this conversation civil. I do not want the old GoG to "rot." But I can promise you that we will not live in their shadow. Outsiders can run a guild and that's exactally wht I'm out to prove. Like I said before, I will be a guild admin and everybody else will be on my level for decision making. Like it should be.

-

And one more thing, it was asked what to call the guild, the NGoG or the GoNG. :D Call it either the New Greeters or the GoG. Both are fine and both exemplify what the guild will strive to be. Again, more questions are welcome; keep them coming!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:42 am 
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Trekluver wrote:

That's perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, I am telling any greeters that sign up to go ahead and greet if they want. I'm sure several will during this time. These things come in tiny steps; the big step was rebooting the guild. ;) Give us some time and you might start seeing us in the city before January. (We don't intend to use the GoG hood unless people IC (i.e. not on this forum) want us to use it)


You may want to think that over a little more. When people see someone in the GoG hood, there is a natural tendency because of the name to think that they should take their questions there. I've felt it myself, and I've had a number of newbies drop in asking if I were a greeter because they saw a person in it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:58 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
Trekluver wrote:

That's perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, I am telling any greeters that sign up to go ahead and greet if they want. I'm sure several will during this time. These things come in tiny steps; the big step was rebooting the guild. ;) Give us some time and you might start seeing us in the city before January. (We don't intend to use the GoG hood unless people IC (i.e. not on this forum) want us to use it)


You may want to think that over a little more. When people see someone in the GoG hood, there is a natural tendency because of the name to think that they should take their questions there. I've felt it myself, and I've had a number of newbies drop in asking if I were a greeter because they saw a person in it.


I pretty much already answered what you said. If players IC want us to use the GoG hood then that's fine. The problem before is exactly why the GoG had a hard time transitioning: loneliness. Just look at what dadguy said again and you'll understand. I'm not going to start a guild just so people can leave in six months saying their tired of it. New players (In my experience) tend to hit the nexus first followed by the city.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:08 am 
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Trekluver wrote:
New players (In my experience) tend to hit the nexus first followed by the city.


If you'll recall, everyone pretty much went to the city because GoG had gone cold. Before that, it was mostly that hood you would see everyone hanging out. I say use that hood...for consistency if anything else. That and, IIRC, it's pinned at the top of the Nexus list by default so it would be easy to find. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:48 am 
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Hey New Greeters!

This is a good thing for the game.

Some comments:

- I like the name. :wink:

- TomVal (your first New Greeter) is a good man whom I tried to help get into the (old) Greeters for a while.

- It's difficult, if not impossible, to get enough New Greeters to establish a schedule that attempts to make sure the game is always attended.... don't get frustrated if the best you can do is to have some New Greeters there some of the time.

- Enthusiasm will be high for a while, but don't be frustrated if the initial energy wanes a bit. It's human nature. :-)

- I want to correct the quote Trek posted from me (Trek quoted me properly, I just stated it poorly).

Quote:
I say "go for it". I have been trying for two years to get the Greeters admin to open the process up to allow new Greeters, but they have declined saying they were tired of coming in every night and standing alone for an hour. I can understand that.


... The "they" I was referring to was not the Admins, but the Greeters. To state it better:

"I say "go for it". I have been trying for two years to get the Greeters admin to open the process up to allow new Greeters, but they have declined saying that the current Greeters were tired of coming in every night and standing alone for an hour. Their view is that recruiting new Greeters now seems pointless. I can understand that."

The underlying sentiment was always that the Greeters would become more active when the game became a living, growing entity again.

But I say take advantage of those that have the energy and desire to Greet in the Cavern as it is now.

Remember to have fun and try not to take things too seriously.

Cheers,

Dadguy

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