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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:41 am 
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Before I post my reply to this I have a question; what do we currently know about Guildmaster Kadish? I might have something of some interest but it's a bit of a long shot and I'd much prefer to understand who we are taking about first before jumping to conclusions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:13 pm 
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"Kadish viewed himself as the Grower; as the one the Watcher had prophesied about" (from Simpson's notebook in The Watcher's Sanctuary), so perhaps he placed the image there as further proof. Is there anything in the gallery that could be interpreted as "Four leads a ten"?

dgelessus wrote:
The Watcher (in the Prophecies 3) wrote:
First there is a one;
followed by a nine.
[...]
There is no value in such numbers.
Not exactly true regarding the D'ni number system, but hey, it's something!
Also maybe Cyan didn't think correctly... heh heh!
The D'ni number system may not be what the line refers to; it could refer any number of things such as a person who is followed by nine others.

[Reveal] Spoiler: More from The Words Book, Section 3
First there is a one;
Followed by a nine.
Four leads a ten.
Numbers;
Cut into stone.
If understood they could save,
But their value is lost on the blind.
Look at the time they spend trying to see numbers.
There is no value in such numbers.
For only after are they understood.

Why do these numbers haunt us so?
They laugh upon us
And reveal our weakness;
In the face of the great time.

Foolish men. Do you think that you are the only writers?
Who is the new writer? The rules are written within him.

The rain starts and the tree will grow,
But are you the one to start it?
You did nothing but follow.
The grower is the one who leads.

Guild of Greeters' Library Notebooks

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Last edited by Tai'lahr on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:15 pm 
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chrissifniotis wrote:
Before I post my reply to this I have a question; what do we currently know about Guildmaster Kadish? I might have something of some interest but it's a bit of a long shot and I'd much prefer to understand who we are taking about first before jumping to conclusions.

Go ahead and tell us, there's nothing wrong with that ;)
What do we know about Kadish? Well, he was the Guild Master of the Guild of Writers, thus very rich, so he wrote Kadish Tolesa to protect his riches. He also died there, because he din't want to let go of them.
He tried to convince people that he was the Grower, which he did by fulfilling some prophecies of the Watcher, such as linking through time (the purpose of Ahnonay). I believe there was also something about bringing light to the cavern, which he did with the Er'cana pellet factory. He also was the only one who could enter the Great Tree.
[Reveal] Spoiler: Uru TPotS spoiler
Where you have to wait 15 minutes.

The point of Kadish Gallery, as far as I understand it, was that he hung clues to get to his vault all over the place without anyone noticing. Maybe he did it for his own satisfaction, maybe to not forget the codes, maybe to go boasting. ("Your feeble minds are not capable of understanding this. Everything you need to get to my riches is in front of yor face!" <end Lyrobot style>)
And that's why we are trying to find the meaning of that symbol.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler: More from The Words Book, Section 3
First there is a one;
Followed by a nine.
Four leads a ten.
Numbers;
Cut into stone.
If understood they could save,
But their value is lost on the blind.
Look at the time they spend trying to see numbers.
There is no value in such numbers.
For only after are they understood.

Why do these numbers haunt us so?
They laugh upon us
And reveal our weakness;
In the face of the great time.

Foolish men. Do you think that you are the only writers?
Who is the new writer? The rules are written within him.

The rain starts and the tree will grow,
But are you the one to start it?
You did nothing but follow.
The grower is the one who leads.

Sometimes it feels like that is really addressed to us, who are trying to find out what the nunbers mean.
Quote:
Why do these numbers haunt us so?
They laugh upon us
And reveal our weakness;
In the face of the great time.

Foolish men.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:00 pm 
Quote:
Look at the time they spend trying to see numbers.
There is no value in such numbers.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:27 am 
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Shorah chrissifniotis,

chrissifniotis wrote:
Before I post my reply to this I have a question; what do we currently know about Guildmaster Kadish? I might have something of some interest but it's a bit of a long shot and I'd much prefer to understand who we are taking about first before jumping to conclusions.

To add a bit more to dgelessus's Kadish summary, there are some things we can surmise about Kadish (though they are not recorded as fact anywhere).

Based on the Kadish gallery clues and the Tolesa puzzles (as well as the Great Tree lock in the pub), he seems to have been fond of paradox, making his locks counterintuitive. I suspect this reveals a great deal about his way of thinking as well as his personality. He seemed to excel in elaborately clever puzzles, both as a means to hide his assets as well as to taunt his fellow D'ni while elevating his status among them. There is something of P.T. Barnum in him, I think, which makes it difficult to know who he might have been underneath all the showmanship. It would not surprise me if few, if any, D'ni truly knew him at all.

The torn notes in the future vault imply that somebody (presumably Yeesha) rescued him from death. Assuming there is some truth to this, then Kadish likely is running about somewhere even today. (Of course, we could also consider the whole Yeesha instancing/Bahro time travel/Tree of Possibilities branching options... in which case who knows what it might mean?)

Two of the garden Ages are decorated with the Kadish/Ahnonay/Grower symbol (the gazebo floors in Kemo and Tsogahl). We have no explanation for what this means. Since the garden Ages were written long before Kadish was born, I think it likely that this symbol is a traditional D'ni one for the Grower; after all, it would make sense for a Grower symbol to be used in a garden Age. The other symbol used in the garden Ages is the Great Tree symbol, similar to the one in the King's Gallery, which also makes sense for a garden Age. Anyhow, my theory is that Kadish co-opted this symbol for the Grower when he Wrote Ahnonay, using it as an inspiration for his Age design as well as to underscore his claim to be the Grower.

The other *very* tenuous Kadish-ism is the presence of the Laki'ahn butterflies in the future vault. These insects have been named the Crimson Kadish (probably by the D'ni Zoological Society, though this is only a guess on my part--I cannot verify this as their website is down). This implies a connection between Kadish and Laki'ahn, with the butterflies perhaps linking back to the vault in the same manner that the Kemo Chirtee'tahm do.

[Reveal] Spoiler: Ahnonay spoiler ahead
And just another comment about Ahnonay. When we are able to see the "real" Age after the vogondola ride, we can see that this is a torus Age (similar to Katran's torus Age, which she Wrote some time later). I find it interesting that Kadish could have Written such an Age; he must have been a brilliant Writer, probably breaking the traditional rules of Writing in much the same manner as Yeesha does now. Yet he hid this brilliance and instead used it as the basis for a cheap parlor trick.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:30 am 
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Thanks Tai'lahr, dgelessus and Ainia. Again this is a long shot and is based purely on speculation, so take this with a few buckets of salt. :P

Just on a whim I decided to canvas the number 19 in the D'ni wikia to evaluate any significance of 19 on known record, just to look at any established information about anything that is or has 19 in it. Besides the soundtracks and a couple of lines from the prophecies;
Book 2, Line 19 - The action of the deceived is toiling in vain.
Book 4, Line 19 - A desert bird knows where to wait and watch
I found the article on the D'ni Council, the governing body of the D'ni after Kerath's abdication as part of his reformation. The Council holds 365 members of the governing body, in it 19 Guild Masters of each guild. For a civilization who bases a great deal of their culture about their base-25 numeracy system 19 strikes me as a very odd number.
[Reveal] Spoiler: To be fair...
so does 18 Grand Masters. 365 appears less conspicuous.


Now obviously this relies entirely on the fact that Kadish a) would need to have lived after the 'monarchy' of sorts as Kerath ended the king's governance to establish the council and b) should on some level have left more of a mark in D'ni history if accepting the notion of him as a member as well as the Watcher; but given the information from everyone so far I don't think it's overstepping my bounds to conject the Guild Master as a very ambitious fellow, very clever and very vain in that he impresses on his peers as a prophet using his knowledge of the Art. His use of puzzles explained by Ainia suggests he may have a form of a superiority complex in that he further impresses on the D'ni the complexity of his locks and his ages as way to raise himself up as a superior D'ni. With these in mind, while unlikely at best and at the present time impossible to prove, it seems plausible to me that to some capacity Kadish was either in or attempting to reach a position in the D'ni Council, and that 19 may indicate a homage to the council in either his aspirations or abilities as a Guild Master on the council.
The only basis I can offer to this theory is the best known description of Kadish and the wikia article.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Ainia wrote:
The torn notes in the future vault imply that somebody (presumably Yeesha) rescued him from death.


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Someone (I don't remember who) once pointed out that's it not Yeesha's handwriting on those torn notes. If you've ever played Riven, you'll recognize Catherine's handwriting. Curiouser and curiouser....

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:24 pm 
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TOOO wrote:
Ainia wrote:
The torn notes in the future vault imply that somebody (presumably Yeesha) rescued him from death.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Someone (I don't remember who) once pointed out that's it not Yeesha's handwriting on those torn notes. If you've ever played Riven, you'll recognize Catherine's handwriting. Curiouser and curiouser....

[Reveal] Spoiler:
What's even more curiouser is how dramatically her handwriting changed from Riven to Revelations. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Shorah everyone,

Tai'lahr wrote:
TOOO wrote:
Ainia wrote:
The torn notes in the future vault imply that somebody (presumably Yeesha) rescued him from death.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Someone (I don't remember who) once pointed out that's it not Yeesha's handwriting on those torn notes. If you've ever played Riven, you'll recognize Catherine's handwriting. Curiouser and curiouser....

[Reveal] Spoiler:
What's even more curiouser is how dramatically her handwriting changed from Riven to Revelations. :wink:

Ah, you may be referring to my journal posting here. :D A fascinating little conundrum, that...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:21 am 
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I don't doubt that featuring as prominently as they do there must be some significance to the double '19'. However, in Kadish's other puzzles and clues, he seems fond of including extraneous information in order to confuse others.

[Reveal] Spoiler: For example:
I can't tell you how long I tried comparing the three sets of symbols on the spinning cubes at the end of the gallery in order to glean some meaning from them. It took me a long while to realize that the three symbols each represented the number below it, nothing more.

Perhaps, the role of the double 19 seals is similar, to work as giant 'red herrings.' I wouldn't put it past Kadish to gleefully watch gallery visitors trying to find meaning in nonsense. Than again, I can also envision him putting something very plain in sight and silently chuckling as no one got it...

Maybe Kadish was born on the 19th?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Guybrush Threepwood wrote:
Maybe Kadish was born on the 19th?

Now that's an interesting theory :D
Yes, it could be possible that the symbol means nothing and is just a distraction. (OOC: The texture isn't that high-res either.) Still, I think that in Kadish Gallery, nothing is unimportant.
Maybe it's part of some planned puzzle.
[Reveal] Spoiler: Ahnonay spoiler
The Ahnonay combo was already there in Ages Beyond Myst and To D'ni...
so it's not impossible that it might have been important somewhere.

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